I've applied to have current CAO enforced as agreed Wed contact from 3 til 7 ended when our son began attending school. I was advised by the court to seek anamendment to current order to allow me to collect our son from School on one day in the week rather than have him for 2 hrs from 4pm from a venue an hours jrn from my home. It's taken a year and it has come to light that there is a lifetime non molestation order on file relating to accusations she made against me in 2016. Because of this order the court decided that whilst this was in place I could not collect him from school but only that contact would start at current drop off and end at 7pm rather than 6 at same venue. This means that I will never be able to collect our son from School and we face the prospect of wandering around in the dark and cold for 3 hrs during winter months or spending 2 hrs travelling for an hour at home. Every Wed until he's 18. His mum lied and lied in court and this didn't seem to bother them. She's now free to manipulate me whenever she wishes and will break the order at will because she always has. I'm being treated like a criminal and I've never done any of the things she has accused me of. How am I going to tell my little boy the reason why I cannot collect him from School like all the other parents?
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Sorry but I do give up
- Thread starter AGoodParent
- Start date
The Family Court advised me that they were not able to 'deal' with the Lifetime Non Mol and when I told them that I was fearful of this being in place whilst also having a CAO in place that contradicts the order they discussed this for a few minutes and then advised that the only thing that was in the order that could be an issue was the stipulation that I only communicated with mum via her Solicitor. Left it at that. We are obviously in constant communication via text and email. It's just unbelievable! I have no idea how she got a lifetime Non Mol in the first place.
Feeling less despondent now so any legal advice would be gratefully received. She knows I can't afford a Solicitor btw.
Feeling less despondent now so any legal advice would be gratefully received. She knows I can't afford a Solicitor btw.
You can challenge ANY non-molestation order if you believe the order or application against you is baseless, did you ever receive any notification of this? It would have been served on you I believe.
What are the nature of the allegations? If you can let us know we can probably help you a little more.
What are the nature of the allegations? If you can let us know we can probably help you a little more.
Hi. I am very sorry to hear this snd completely understand - have had a bad enforcement myself. Cafcass believed everything Mother said and I also lost school pickups and drop offs at secondary school. But - I did make some mistakes at that hearing and would have gone back at the next breach - but then the pandemic started.
But it is an awful feeling when things don’t go well and you have power taken away. If it helps this is a classic strategy of exes, as advised by their solicitor s - to get out of court orders- eg a minor breach and then get the order varied at the hearing.
Did you self rep? I think sometimes you need someone good on your side at an enforcement hearing (but not some flakey solicitor who bats for the other side). And/or a really good position statement that a half decent judge takes note of.
Try to see it as having to withdraw from a battle to lick wounds and get yourself together ready to go back and fight again. At some point. You may not feel like it right now but your boy needs you.
And yes I totally get that your boy now sees his Mum as winning and you as powerless - temporarily.
It sounds completely stupid, the outcome. And not child focused. Was it magistrates or a Judge? Or was it Cafcass decided this.
How old is your boy? And I have never heard of a lifetime molestation order before. Sounds a bit iffy - if you had a court order made then all welfare issues will have been dismissed at that point and school pickups were ordered. That point needed making.
But it is an awful feeling when things don’t go well and you have power taken away. If it helps this is a classic strategy of exes, as advised by their solicitor s - to get out of court orders- eg a minor breach and then get the order varied at the hearing.
Did you self rep? I think sometimes you need someone good on your side at an enforcement hearing (but not some flakey solicitor who bats for the other side). And/or a really good position statement that a half decent judge takes note of.
Try to see it as having to withdraw from a battle to lick wounds and get yourself together ready to go back and fight again. At some point. You may not feel like it right now but your boy needs you.
And yes I totally get that your boy now sees his Mum as winning and you as powerless - temporarily.
It sounds completely stupid, the outcome. And not child focused. Was it magistrates or a Judge? Or was it Cafcass decided this.
How old is your boy? And I have never heard of a lifetime molestation order before. Sounds a bit iffy - if you had a court order made then all welfare issues will have been dismissed at that point and school pickups were ordered. That point needed making.
As for what you tell your boy- you say that at the moment Daddy will see him at x place at x time on Wednesdays. But never mind, you can go somewhere nice and play a game (I did a lot of going to cafes and service stations at one time - we’d get a comic and work through it together). If he asks why not ftom school then you say that needs to be agreed with Mum and sometimes parent’s don’t agree. (Of course that is why you go to court to sort it out).
Your ex may tell him nasty stuff but you mustn’t resort to that or it’ll mess his head. Just correct any rubbish she tells him. So if he says to you - Mum says you can’t come to school because the court said so. I would just say - that is a matter for adults to discuss and for now we can see each other x place.
I totally get what you mean - how can our kids trust in anything if someone thinks this is ok. And it is the court enabling the ex to wreck a relationship. I think sometimes that is deliberate (a bad Cafcass officer who is biased) in the hope you give up and go away. So don’t give up and go away! Sometimes it is just delays and useless magistrates.
So get yourself an action list.
1) Set about getting the nmo clearly dismissed legally (assume you have a copy - it should expire after a year so if your ex lied and said it was lifetime then you prove that at a directions hearing.
It is sad that it has taken a year and a bad result but your case has probably been on the bottom of the pile during the pandemic and seen as minor.
My ex stopped school pickups at one point and a few more breaches- holidays etc - I couldn’t enforce as my order wasn’t enforceable it was so badly written - so I applied to vary and asked for shared care and additional time. School pickups reinstated. A tip - my barristers argument was - so why shouldn’t he pick his son up from school? Judge went with that. Ex breached school pickups as soon as son started secondary school - said he was old enough to choose for himself (tempted him with travelling with friends).
You win some you lose some but you can get tips on how to have a better hearing next time on here. And get some power back.
Win’t say any more till hear how old your son is and if there is distance.
Your ex may tell him nasty stuff but you mustn’t resort to that or it’ll mess his head. Just correct any rubbish she tells him. So if he says to you - Mum says you can’t come to school because the court said so. I would just say - that is a matter for adults to discuss and for now we can see each other x place.
I totally get what you mean - how can our kids trust in anything if someone thinks this is ok. And it is the court enabling the ex to wreck a relationship. I think sometimes that is deliberate (a bad Cafcass officer who is biased) in the hope you give up and go away. So don’t give up and go away! Sometimes it is just delays and useless magistrates.
So get yourself an action list.
1) Set about getting the nmo clearly dismissed legally (assume you have a copy - it should expire after a year so if your ex lied and said it was lifetime then you prove that at a directions hearing.
It is sad that it has taken a year and a bad result but your case has probably been on the bottom of the pile during the pandemic and seen as minor.
My ex stopped school pickups at one point and a few more breaches- holidays etc - I couldn’t enforce as my order wasn’t enforceable it was so badly written - so I applied to vary and asked for shared care and additional time. School pickups reinstated. A tip - my barristers argument was - so why shouldn’t he pick his son up from school? Judge went with that. Ex breached school pickups as soon as son started secondary school - said he was old enough to choose for himself (tempted him with travelling with friends).
You win some you lose some but you can get tips on how to have a better hearing next time on here. And get some power back.
Win’t say any more till hear how old your son is and if there is distance.
My first order was horrendous - completely against me .... my second one - when I went back a couple of years later - was amazing.....
What I learned was don’t rely on anyone at court to write the order - take a draft order with everything you want in it (or attach a draft order to a statement). And don’t leave court without the order written up in the day - either by a barrister or by the judge - so you can see what it says.
My first order accidentally gave the Mother sole residency (when we’d had informal shared care for years). And the schedule was only written up as a recital so not enforceable. Actually that didn’t matter as application to vary was more effective than enforcement.
You will not be stuck with this till your boy is 18 - because your ex will keep chipping away to reduce time and sadly we almost always need to return to court - to protect the child. Ask for a district judge next time. And go in confident about your child‘a needs.
Apart from anything else an NMO should have no bearing whatsoever on school pick ups! If anything it means your ex mustn’t be there
You will not be stuck with this till your boy is 18 - because your ex will keep chipping away to reduce time and sadly we almost always need to return to court - to protect the child. Ask for a district judge next time. And go in confident about your child‘a needs.
Apart from anything else an NMO should have no bearing whatsoever on school pick ups! If anything it means your ex mustn’t be there
If you can give us some more details we can advise what next. You might be able to get an urgent directions hearing with a District Judge, citing child’s welfare (hanging around outside in the dark etc) and for the NMO to be overturned as a) welfare issues dismissed when CAO was made b) NMO not followed by either party who have co parented ever since and c) NMO has no bearing on school collections anyway - only contact with ex.
Thanks for response. Very helpful. This ongoing NMO from 2017 states that I shouldn't go within her old flat, sons old nursery, not to be abusive if threatening. The kicker is no communication apart from via her solicitor. The police have advised me that I should not be communicating with her at risk of arrest. The Family Court ordered yesterday that we should communicate and that would also not be dealing with the NMO and therefore it remains. It's insane!
She claimed that I would make false accusations against her to the school and parents at school run and made up past examples without evidence. This and the NMO was cited as the reason that they couldn't allow it on new order. Covering their backs basically. There is no risk and mum knows this. What's important to her is that she's seen as a victim and that her false narrative is believed. She doesn't care about the effect this has on our son.
She claimed that I would make false accusations against her to the school and parents at school run and made up past examples without evidence. This and the NMO was cited as the reason that they couldn't allow it on new order. Covering their backs basically. There is no risk and mum knows this. What's important to her is that she's seen as a victim and that her false narrative is believed. She doesn't care about the effect this has on our son.
The Court have told me that they will provide me with a copy of the NMO as I have never been served a copy and mum refuses to provide it. They read me the details of it as it was added at the end of the Fact Finding decisions from 2017. I assume it's as I listed above.
This definitely needs sorting out! You were never even served with it. So how did you know it stands? And if it's an NMO it should EXPIRE after a year. If you were never served with it, it sounds like she applied for it ex parte (this is very common - exes apply for an ex parte NMO - ie without the other person present) and they are usually given it, just in case they are telling the truth, to protect them and the kids. But - there is then usually a further NMO hearing at which you can either defend it or do an undertaking saying you don't accept the accusations but agree to not do various things.
So you had a fact finding in 2017. What was the result of that? I assume it was found in your favour if you now have a Child Arrangements Order.
So you had a fact finding in 2017. What was the result of that? I assume it was found in your favour if you now have a Child Arrangements Order.
First thing I'd put in the next application is: At the hearing on x date, the court said Mrs Ex and I must communicate, while at the same time, claimed there was a non molestation order against me saying I must not contact her except via a Solicitor. I was unaware of the non molestation order (which apparently is from 2017) and have never been served with a copy. In 2017 a fact find hearing found xyz, with no mention of a non molestation order, and a Child Arrangements Order was made. My concern is my child is being prevented from having normality with both parents for no reason whatsoever as there never have been any welfare issues, and this was determined in 2017 (or whatever year the order was made).
What exactly does your Child Arrangements order say? Is it "spends time with" and does it specify exact dates and times?
What exactly does your Child Arrangements order say? Is it "spends time with" and does it specify exact dates and times?
What I don't understand is how she got a lifetime NMO. She made a lot of wild allegations including that I attempted to kill our son so perhaps this. Both allegations denied in Fact Finding. Apart from the constant lies and continuing abrasive communication from her the most galling aspect of this is that I was the victim of domestic abuse, both physically and via controlling and cohersive abuse. She assaulted me on numerous occasions and in the end seriously enough that I attended A&E due to severe stomach pains resulting from her using her knees to inflict injury after I had lost my balance from her pushing me. A&E contacted Social Services and the police arrested me a few days later after Social Services spoke to her. Obviously she told them I had assaulted her. Everything she said was believed. It's been a hard battle. I parent our son more than a lot of seperated dad's but only because she doesn't want to. Never did. Maintaining the narrative that she is a victim of Domestic Abuse and the attention she gains from this is everything to her and I'm not the first she has made similar accusations against. This is why I'm blocked from collecting son from school. She doesn't want teachers and parents to see that I'm just a normal person who is also a good parent.
How do I go about getting this NMO discharged?
Sorry for not replying before. So you have a new order coming after a recent hearing. Three week-ends out of four sounds good. Not so many holidays though but maybe that's ok for you. Who was supposed to be writing up the order? If you both have solicitors then yours should write up the order and the other side solicitor needs to agree the wording and content (and often they don't and delay things!). If only your ex had a solicitor then her solicitor will be expected to draw up the order (and will delay things and there may be "errors" from what was said on the day). If neither of you have a solicitor then either the Judge or Cafcass will draw up the order. I once had Cafcass draw up an order and it was nothing like what was agreed in court! After a further problem with an order not being agreed after the hearing (during which time it's not enforceable) I h I ave always insisted that the order is done before leaving court.
Basically if it just says 3 hours on a wednesday and doesn't specify where from then she doesn't have to agree to you collecting from school. Likewise if it just says three week-ends out of four and doesn't specify what time those week-ends start and end, then it comes down to what she will actually agree to in terms of start and end of week-end. Ideally it should say something like 4pm on Fridays from Mother's home until 9am Mondays return to school - or similar. That's called a defined order - where the times and dates are clearly defined for everything so no arguments over what's what.
Anyway sounds like it needs chasing up. I hate to say this but the NMO situation I think you need some legal advice. You could try getting a half hour's free legal advice (they often let it go on for an hour). But no doubt they will need to see documents etc.
I am not sure what to suggest next without a kind of timeline of details and orders. So after the fact find, did it go in your favour and an order made? Or was that fairly recent too? ie the run up to this last hearing.
Fact finds are funny things - if they are found against you (based on who the Judge believes or likes sometimes) then sometimes they say - you can't see your child unless you admit the abuse and do a course. A number of Dads have been decimated by this situation saying they refuse to admit something they haven't done, but if they don't there is no order to see child. And it's totally bonkers anyway - how does admitting anything make you safer than being innocent and not admitting anything? There will have been some kind of judgement at the end of the fact find. It could be worth getting a transcription of that if it found that you didn't do these things - because that is the evidence you'll need to get the NMO overturned.
You could also contact the Mankind Initiative. They specialise in helping men who have been abused and can help with advocacy - even if it's just by means of a letter.
I think you need to be getting this NMO overturned though and that will probably mean a separate application. However if that fact find went against you, then it's unlikely the NMO could be completely overturned. Although you now have a good case for it being limited to say just not going within x yards of ex's house and having all collections to and from school! She can't have it both ways! And whoever did your final hearing didn't do it properly to leave that NMO in place and say you needed to communicate! Was it magistrates? So I am thinking you could apply for a directions hearing or a specific issues application regarding school collections and the NMO being dismissed. But try and get some legal advice. I have sometimes used Just Answer for a legal question and had some very good legal advice that way (some who respond are good some a bit brief and disinterested but you can always ask them to pass it to someone else if not happy with response detail). Costs about £38.
Sounds like my ex - does abusive things and then covers for herself by accusing someone else of being the abuser. Despite the fact I only dated her for a few weeks and we never lived together, she still accused me of controlling behaviour some 10 years later! Lol. She considers me applying for a court order as "controlling".
Basically if it just says 3 hours on a wednesday and doesn't specify where from then she doesn't have to agree to you collecting from school. Likewise if it just says three week-ends out of four and doesn't specify what time those week-ends start and end, then it comes down to what she will actually agree to in terms of start and end of week-end. Ideally it should say something like 4pm on Fridays from Mother's home until 9am Mondays return to school - or similar. That's called a defined order - where the times and dates are clearly defined for everything so no arguments over what's what.
Anyway sounds like it needs chasing up. I hate to say this but the NMO situation I think you need some legal advice. You could try getting a half hour's free legal advice (they often let it go on for an hour). But no doubt they will need to see documents etc.
I am not sure what to suggest next without a kind of timeline of details and orders. So after the fact find, did it go in your favour and an order made? Or was that fairly recent too? ie the run up to this last hearing.
Fact finds are funny things - if they are found against you (based on who the Judge believes or likes sometimes) then sometimes they say - you can't see your child unless you admit the abuse and do a course. A number of Dads have been decimated by this situation saying they refuse to admit something they haven't done, but if they don't there is no order to see child. And it's totally bonkers anyway - how does admitting anything make you safer than being innocent and not admitting anything? There will have been some kind of judgement at the end of the fact find. It could be worth getting a transcription of that if it found that you didn't do these things - because that is the evidence you'll need to get the NMO overturned.
You could also contact the Mankind Initiative. They specialise in helping men who have been abused and can help with advocacy - even if it's just by means of a letter.
I think you need to be getting this NMO overturned though and that will probably mean a separate application. However if that fact find went against you, then it's unlikely the NMO could be completely overturned. Although you now have a good case for it being limited to say just not going within x yards of ex's house and having all collections to and from school! She can't have it both ways! And whoever did your final hearing didn't do it properly to leave that NMO in place and say you needed to communicate! Was it magistrates? So I am thinking you could apply for a directions hearing or a specific issues application regarding school collections and the NMO being dismissed. But try and get some legal advice. I have sometimes used Just Answer for a legal question and had some very good legal advice that way (some who respond are good some a bit brief and disinterested but you can always ask them to pass it to someone else if not happy with response detail). Costs about £38.
Sounds like my ex - does abusive things and then covers for herself by accusing someone else of being the abuser. Despite the fact I only dated her for a few weeks and we never lived together, she still accused me of controlling behaviour some 10 years later! Lol. She considers me applying for a court order as "controlling".
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