My son’s ex has communicated through her solicitor that their almost 3 year old has said he doesn’t want to see his dad and wants to stay with her. She has also said his behaviour is different after he’s been to his dad’s. Should my son be worried? There’s a contested final hearing in May and CAFCASS section 7 recommended 5050 shared care when the child is 4 and interim 5 out of 14 nights with dad.
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Sons ex is trying to alienate the 3 year old
- Thread starter Nanaforsonsjustice
- Start date
Is your son represented?
Sounds like he's gone through the worst of it and has an excellent S7. He's in a strong and enviable position.
Mum is likely to be making up these stories as she doesn't like the recommendations from CAFCASS.
Courts will unlikely go against the S7 report and the thoughts of a 3 year old will have very little relevance at this stage.
I'd be delighted to be in your son's position.
Congratulate him for us.
And, of course he might worry, but if he's got a barrister lined up I'd be sleeping fairly comfortably
Sounds like he's gone through the worst of it and has an excellent S7. He's in a strong and enviable position.
Mum is likely to be making up these stories as she doesn't like the recommendations from CAFCASS.
Courts will unlikely go against the S7 report and the thoughts of a 3 year old will have very little relevance at this stage.
I'd be delighted to be in your son's position.
Congratulate him for us.
And, of course he might worry, but if he's got a barrister lined up I'd be sleeping fairly comfortably
Thank you for your response
.He has a DAB lined up who’s represented him twice now.
She definitely doesn’t like the recommendations from cafcass she wants him to have their son once a week for 24hrs only. She’s even trying to put the child into nursery all day every day so that he can’t see dad for the court ordered midweek overnight.
It’s concerning that’s she’s trying to alienate him though. Would it be worth discussing this with the health visitor to see if they can offer any advice?
Document everything, and highlight the pattern.Thank you for your response
He has a DAB lined up who’s represented him twice now.
She definitely doesn’t like the recommendations from cafcass she wants him to have their son once a week for 24hrs only. She’s even trying to put the child into nursery all day every day so that he can’t see dad for the court ordered midweek overnight.
It’s concerning that’s she’s trying to alienate him though. Would it be worth discussing this with the health visitor to see if they can offer any advice?
A 3 year old should not be rejecting a parent without any coaching or influence involved.
We will.
It’s so strange she’s saying these false things because when he’s here he happy and loves being with his dad.
No he shouldn't given the Section 7.
There are two other things:
1. It is a resident parent's legal responsibility to support their child's relationship with the non-resident parent and that has been made very clear by the President of the Family Division.
2. Thy a child does nof want to go to 'contact' is jot a defence for not sending them. They have to go and it is up to the resident parent to ensue that takes place.
These duties are referred to in a judgement by both the current and further President and others and part of that judgement states:
75. .....Equally, for the parent who has the primary care of a child, to send that child off to spend time with the other parent may, in some cases, be itself a significant burden; it may, to use modern parlance, be “a very big ask”. Where, however, it is plainly in the best interests of a child to spend time with the other parent then, tough or not, part of the responsibility of the parent with care must be the duty and responsibility to deliver what the child needs, hard though that may be.
The judgement can be found here:
There are two other things:
1. It is a resident parent's legal responsibility to support their child's relationship with the non-resident parent and that has been made very clear by the President of the Family Division.
2. Thy a child does nof want to go to 'contact' is jot a defence for not sending them. They have to go and it is up to the resident parent to ensue that takes place.
These duties are referred to in a judgement by both the current and further President and others and part of that judgement states:
75. .....Equally, for the parent who has the primary care of a child, to send that child off to spend time with the other parent may, in some cases, be itself a significant burden; it may, to use modern parlance, be “a very big ask”. Where, however, it is plainly in the best interests of a child to spend time with the other parent then, tough or not, part of the responsibility of the parent with care must be the duty and responsibility to deliver what the child needs, hard though that may be.
The judgement can be found here:
I'm really sorry to hear this. Things can get nasty in the run up to a final hearing. I have been on the receiving end of an ex trying to manipulate a child into saying they don't want to see Dad. My son ended up, what I call, "semi alienated". He never was completely alienated as he resisted as his loyalty was strong. But it was very upsetting seeing him slipping in and out of being a hostile alien and a normal child - sometimes every 20 mins or so. The longer he was here, the more it wore off.
So at the moment you don't know she is actually actively alienating him - ie trying to brainwash him. All you know is that SHE has said he doesn't want to see his Dad. I am sure both the court and Cafcass will not take any notice of her, based on what has happened so far.
The time to get concerned is if his son refuses to come with him or says he doesn't want to.
Personally I wouldn't get the health visitor involved - you have a final hearing coming up - just muddle through as best you can - my ex stopped doing it once the final hearing was over and the order was made. It's probably her last attempt to try and disrupt the process.
But - May is still quite a long way off. If it comes to the point where she doesn't let him come and says he doesn't want to, then put an urgent C2 in for enforcement.
If he comes and is acting a bit alien or hostile then there are ways of handling that so you don't make it worse - message me if that happens. But hopefully he's still fine and normal when with you - they are quite good at compartmentalising.
So at the moment you don't know she is actually actively alienating him - ie trying to brainwash him. All you know is that SHE has said he doesn't want to see his Dad. I am sure both the court and Cafcass will not take any notice of her, based on what has happened so far.
The time to get concerned is if his son refuses to come with him or says he doesn't want to.
Personally I wouldn't get the health visitor involved - you have a final hearing coming up - just muddle through as best you can - my ex stopped doing it once the final hearing was over and the order was made. It's probably her last attempt to try and disrupt the process.
But - May is still quite a long way off. If it comes to the point where she doesn't let him come and says he doesn't want to, then put an urgent C2 in for enforcement.
If he comes and is acting a bit alien or hostile then there are ways of handling that so you don't make it worse - message me if that happens. But hopefully he's still fine and normal when with you - they are quite good at compartmentalising.
I'm in a similar position, where the ex doesnt like the judgement and is doing everything possible to frustrate and also making out my child doesnt want to see me, yet clearly he does. This is pretty standard fare. For all the lip service that courts, cafcass and everyone else harps on about when discussing alienating behaviour, the courts do very little about it. Many DV and DA charities go as far as saying that alienating doesnt exist and it's the father trying to pin blame on the ex. But we all know it happens, it happens to most of us and it is usually perpetrated by women, who see themselves as the superior parent.
So, if the ex says the child isn't coming, because they down want to .. does that same parent allow them not to go to school or the doctor because the child doesnt want to ? It is either poor parenting or deliberate alienating behaviour.
The problem for the courts is that they don't really have a remedy. They rarely imprison , fine or otherwise sanction alienating behaviour , so they would rather be blind to it and pretend its not present.
So, if the ex says the child isn't coming, because they down want to .. does that same parent allow them not to go to school or the doctor because the child doesnt want to ? It is either poor parenting or deliberate alienating behaviour.
The problem for the courts is that they don't really have a remedy. They rarely imprison , fine or otherwise sanction alienating behaviour , so they would rather be blind to it and pretend its not present.
Family Justice Council has published ‘Guidance on responding to a child’s unexplained reluctance, resistance or refusal to spend time with a parent and allegations of alienating behaviour’ - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary
Find out more about the guidance, which follows one of the largest consultations in the FJC’s history
www.judiciary.uk
so currently, family courts guidance is that it doesnt happen, and when it does happen you need very clear evidence, and even if you have clear evidence and that it is happening, its probably your fault and the court isn't going to do anything about it.
What is very interesting is that the whole guidance and "stakeholders" and interested parties... is a very long list of ..... women and barely any mens interests at all, just 3 out of 35. Probably the most biased report I've ever seen in print.
What is very interesting is that the whole guidance and "stakeholders" and interested parties... is a very long list of ..... women and barely any mens interests at all, just 3 out of 35. Probably the most biased report I've ever seen in print.
And that will speak volumes in court because the mother's words do not align with the actions and behaviour of the child.
Keep writing a summary of each visit, document it all and date it. This will stand as observation notes. Are you present during every visit?
Thank you for this Ash.
He was with my son Friday through till yesterday and there was no issues, he was just his normal happy self. I will message you if he acts hostile.
The ex did message him after to say that he’s not talking to her since he’s been home and he’s not his happy self. Is it worth asking her to stop interrogating him upon return as this will likely stop him from being unhappy when he returns?
We will do this thank you. Out son lives with us so we are here most of the time although not for all of it.
I'm not sure it would be effective asking her to stop interrogating him, because it's like asking a dictator to stop being a dictator. Also she would think the child has told you she is questioning him and might punish him for it.
It sounds like his son is avoiding talking about the nice time he has had to his Mother, knowing what her reaction will be. But also (my son did this too) because they see it as their private time with you and don't want her to know everything.
A Cafcass officer picked up on my ex doing this (interrogation after time with me) and told me to just tell ex what we'd been doing all week-end to avoid the child being questioned. I said I can't because she'll just try to prevent the things we're doing or tell son not to do them.
But as you have to wait until May, you clearly need to attempt some kind of co parenting communication in the meantime. How about something like
"I think children often need quiet adjustment time between homes and he maybe doesn't like lots of questions. It was a normal week-end with normal times together so nothing major to know about".
It's good his son is normal and happy with you. So what's going on is he is keeping his time with you separate from his Mum and resisting being questioned. It sounds like he is partly keeping loyalty to your son and partly just scared of getting into trouble knowing ex won't like it if he enthuses about what a great time he's had. Partly also he probably doesn't know how to vocalise things at 3 - questioning about normal things like having tea is not something they can process easily.
There is not a lot you can do about what ex does and says and your grandson will learn to manage it.
In some ways it might be better not to reply to her at all - it sounds like she's fishing - trying to get you to say something. What did her message actually say? Was it just a statement? Son is very quiet after being at yours. If so that doesn't require a response. It's almost a joke! What's wrong with a child being quiet?
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Thank you Ash. This was what she’s said, my son has obviously never told the child not to tell his mum stuff:
Xxxxx has literally told me since being home that he didn’t want you to have his hair cut . Along with also telling me he’s not talking and when I asked him why he replied with “daddy telled me not to talk”
These behaviours and interactions are very abnormal for xxxxx as he is usually very happy and more interactive than he has currently been.
I don’t understand why you can’t bring xxxxx home the way I sent him to you, which is happy !
It sounds like a haircut was involved. To be honest haircuts can cause massive issues between separated parents. I got told very early on not to do it without asking ex first. It's a hugely emotive topic as it affects the way the child looks. I just took a backseat on that afterwards and let ex deal with haircuts. It sounds like the ex scared him and made a huge fuss about the haircut. To be honest, if he just turned up with a new haircut then she would be pretty pissed off. You'd be expected to send a message saying - just to let you know I've taken him for a haircut. Which would probably also get a huge reaction.
The reason I backed off with haircuts was so my son didn't end up in the middle.
It would be difficult to reply to that message while ignoring the comment that "Daddy telled me to" so it might be better not to reply at all. It sounds to me just like a telling off. Just leave it a few days and then carry on as if nothing has happened in future messages. He can't say no I didn't tell him to say that, because then you'll get the same response I did from my ex "well one of you is a liar". Initially she would punish my son for lying but later would say - I know he tells the truth so you're a liar.
Best just to ignore so it settles down for your son. Silence works best sometimes.
The reason I backed off with haircuts was so my son didn't end up in the middle.
It would be difficult to reply to that message while ignoring the comment that "Daddy telled me to" so it might be better not to reply at all. It sounds to me just like a telling off. Just leave it a few days and then carry on as if nothing has happened in future messages. He can't say no I didn't tell him to say that, because then you'll get the same response I did from my ex "well one of you is a liar". Initially she would punish my son for lying but later would say - I know he tells the truth so you're a liar.
Best just to ignore so it settles down for your son. Silence works best sometimes.
Yes a hair cut was involved. my son took him to get his haircut because she had cut it herself and he had bits missing and long bits where there shouldn’t have been and definitive lines above the ears where she had used scissors to cut it. The barber thought he had cut it himself due to the chunks of hair missing. My son just got it tidied up. He had told her he had got it cut and her answer was why there was nothing wrong with it. She doesn’t even like him taking the child for medical appointments or anything she just tells him off for doing it.
We think the child doesn’t tell her stuff because she won’t stop questioning him. It’s really sad bless him.
I will tell my son to ignore her until she calms down.
We think the child doesn’t tell her stuff because she won’t stop questioning him. It’s really sad bless him.
I will tell my son to ignore her until she calms down.
Haircuts can be a nightmare issue! What do you do? Leave the kids embarrassed and teased with a rubbish haircut? Or risk poking the ex with a big stick - not easy! I found it easier in the end to just leave ex to sort haircuts. They weren't usually too bad.