Part 25 Advice

[Kev19]

My solicitor has told me I may have to submit a part 25 due to the family centre saying my 11 month old is traumatised when we meet.
I have only seen my daughter 3 times at the family centre and each time my daughter has become distressed and the sessions have been cut short.
My daughter has also been to the family centre without me and the session with the staff lasted for 12 minutes before she became distressed.
I feel as if my daughter is suffering from separation anxiety, but the fact that family centre have said she is traumatised may mean I have to submit a part 25.
Has anybody any experience with a part 25 and I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me?
ThNk you in advance.

 

[Ash]

I think that sounds a good idea. Did the solicitor say what the Part 25 application would be for? I did help someone on here do one - which was a first for both of us! A part 25 application asks for a specialist report - it could be for an Independent Social worker (eg to do a section 7 and ascertain any alienating behaviours), a psychologist's report on both parents (also to ascertain any alienating behaviours) or various other things. Ask the solicitor what they propose the Part 25 application is for. I did say I think your ex is behind this because a child shouldn't be like that.

 

[Pj66]

What could the ex be doing to make the child feel distressed like that?

 

[Ash]

Assuming the child is a baby - witholding feed in advance of the sessions possibly? Giving medication even. I seem to remember child's behaviour was the same with the contact staff as well, not just you.

 

[Daddy]

Could also be that a contact centre is not a natural way to spend time with your child and the child doesn't like the contact centre. Unfortunately there's not much we can do about that as dads but it's a valid argument to make.

There are companies though that facilitate spending time with your kids by providing 'contact supporters' in natural settings.
Ideally the mother would be happy to provide the places that the child is familiar with, a soft play etc.

The likelihood is that mum will refuse but the focus is back on her, why aren't you being proactive in promoting that your child spends time with their father in a natural setting?

 

[Kev19]

Thank you for you quick responses. Not entirely sure of the details but they would be looking into why my daughter gets traumatised. You are correct Ash my daughter shows similar symptoms with the staff and not just me. I can imagine my ex being overbearing and anxious around our daughter not letting many people interact with her.
Would the independent SW visit both of us and ask questions as well as spending a good amount of time with my daughter, possibly just the two of them, similar to a S7 and would they look into my ex new partner as I know he is prevented from seeing his son due to a court order against him.
I guess it would cost several thousand and take approximately 12 weeks.
It encourages me that you think this is a good idea.

 

[Ash]

Ask the Solicitor what kind of professional report they're thinking of for a part 25

 

[Kev19]

Thanks Ash I will ask.
Daddy, my daughter appears to prefer a certain member of staff at the centre, and I do feel they favour the mother. like many on here our ex’s will refuse everything and go out of their way to make things challenging. Thank you for the advice

 

[MagicJ]

My solicitor has told me I may have to submit a part 25 due to the family centre saying my 11 month old is traumatised when we meet.
I have only seen my daughter 3 times at the family centre and each time my daughter has become distressed and the sessions have been cut short.
My daughter has also been to the family centre without me and the session with the staff lasted for 12 minutes before she became distressed.
I feel as if my daughter is suffering from separation anxiety, but the fact that family centre have said she is traumatised may mean I have to submit a part 25.
Has anybody any experience with a part 25 and I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me?
ThNk you in advance.

Reading this, it strikes me as a positive that EVEN WITHOUT YOU she is experiencing Anxiety, this shows the behaviour is independent of you.
If you can get the Family Centre to write up a report that identifies this - I think this will be a good bit of evidence in your favour.

A part 25 as @Ash states, is to call the court to appoint an expert to determine a specific question.
I am assuming the Part 25 will be to call for a Child Psychologist to review your Daughter's situation & determine Root Cause of the Anxiety.

It is never a cheap process as in every type of P25, the expert really needs familiarity with the court process & this costs more than a 'normal' expert.
Generally speaking Court prefer these to be jointly appointed i.e. by Agreement otherwise you will have to argue the case in the court.

The costs can go in either direction, ideally you want it 50/50.
If appointed by Agreement, you might sweeten the deal pay for more or entirely & avoid the argument through court.
Alternatively, if by Court Order you can argue at that point for a 50/50 split of costs - court would look at who can financially afford it - on gross earnings.

Hope that Helps

 

[Ash]

If it was for an Independent Social worker it could be between 2k and 3k. If it’s psychologists reports on parents it could be 6k to 20k. Unless the court pays for psychologists reports. I think your child is a baby isn’t she? I’m not sure what a child psychologist would establish in that case. I think it’s more likely to be someone to assess and interview both parents.

 

[Kev19]

@ Magic you have made some good points thank you. The family centre are saying my daughter shows trauma when I spoke to her, so to have them write a report identifying my daughter having anxiety independent of me will go against that document, even though on a separate occasion without me present at the centre they documented, she showed distress, so they have contradicted themselves. Therefore I guess I have already got a report suggesting this. I also wish to keep the family centre on site as I live in an area where this is the only facility available.
At the initial hearing it was mentioned three times my ex was anxious, my thinking is that her anxiety is being passed onto our daughter.
@Ash, as I have only seen my 11 month old daughter three times since she was three months old would I still need assessing or just the mother? She has also chosen not to have a relationship with her father and is passing her life choices onto our daughter and she is not a very social person so I don’t think my daughter is mixing with the wider world, which possibly further contributes to her anxiety.
I am hoping an assessment will be with my daughter and not us parents due to spiralling costs which will stretch my finances to the limit. Would they not be able to ascertain from observing my daughter as to what could possibly be happening and contributing to her anxiety, along with here interaction with the outside world?

 

[bujanin]

Seperation anxiety could come as a result of what is known as enmeshment. I am soon to talk with a child psychologist to find ways to try and release the mothers cloying behaviours. Your daughter as an infant could be experiencing this, especially as has been stated it's not just you but seems to be with family centre staff too - anyone but the mother.

 

[Ash]

@ Magic you have made some good points thank you. The family centre are saying my daughter shows trauma when I spoke to her, so to have them write a report identifying my daughter having anxiety independent of me will go against that document, even though on a separate occasion without me present at the centre they documented, she showed distress, so they have contradicted themselves. Therefore I guess I have already got a report suggesting this. I also wish to keep the family centre on site as I live in an area where this is the only facility available.
At the initial hearing it was mentioned three times my ex was anxious, my thinking is that her anxiety is being passed onto our daughter.
@Ash, as I have only seen my 11 month old daughter three times since she was three months old would I still need assessing or just the mother? She has also chosen not to have a relationship with her father and is passing her life choices onto our daughter and she is not a very social person so I don’t think my daughter is mixing with the wider world, which possibly further contributes to her anxiety.
I am hoping an assessment will be with my daughter and not us parents due to spiralling costs which will stretch my finances to the limit. Would they not be able to ascertain from observing my daughter as to what could possibly be happening and contributing to her anxiety, along with here interaction with the outside world?

To be honest I'm not sure how much they can ascertain from such a young infant who can't even talk presumably. With psychologists reports, it does tend to be on both parents - which is fair - and can be a positive thing. But yes they are very expensive. An Independent Social Worker is a less expensive option. They can do various reports, including a section 7, and they can suss out the ex and her behaviour as well. Some people have used ISW reports to prove PA.

I think the question to ask your Solicitor is - what will the Part 25 application be for?

 

[Kev19]

Ash, if I understand correctly are you saying a section 7 could prove just as beneficial a report as a part 25 with a 11 month child involved, and a section 7 would be undertaken by an ISW and look into very similar issues as a part 25, ultimately costing a lot less money? Do you know if there are any other reports I could possibly request?

 

[Ash]

A part 25 is just an application to request a specific report. Whether that is a Section 7 from an ISW or other professional report.

PART 25 – EXPERTS AND ASSESSORS – Justice UK

www.justice.gov.uk

What is a Part 25 Application? - Children in the Middle

At Children in the Middle we aim to make the family court more accessible to parents by explaining legal terms. A legal term you may or may not have heard of is Part 25 application. The Family Procedure Rules are …

childreninthemiddle.co.uk

It's a C2 including a part 25 application to request an expert, independent report.

 

[Kev19]

If you can remember the video calls with my daughter have now stopped due to her becoming “distressed “
I Have had a reply back from the family centre which is not doing me any favours, it says

“The approach we have taken to support X is using techniques where a child is showing clear signs of distress, despite having Nan in the room to support her.
It is also recorded that this distress arises when Dad speaks.
It remains our professional opinion that X requires assessment of impact.”

At no point did they mention my daughter did not settle at the centre when I was not present.
My solicitor is in the process of completing the P25 for an Independent Social Worker.
I do have a question. Can my ex decline this approach and if so what other options are available to me?

 

[Kev19]

I would very much appreciate peoples thoughts and comments on the email I have received from my solicitor which sound like the course of action could be expensive as she is using the word expert and not Independent Social Worker.
I do not fully understand what this may involve and how beneficial it will be with an infant so young, but I do not know what options I have if I am to see my daughter.
My daughter is now 12 months old, the family centre have said she gets distressed on hearing my voice and zoom calls have failed. I have not seen or heard anything about her for nearly two month.
The main points of the email are:

I am afraid that your position is quite unique.
We are going to need to ask the Court for the following;

1. An assessment pursuant to s7 of the Children Act 1989 to include a parenting assessment of you and Miss XXXX.
2. What support/assistance can be provided or is likely to be available to either or both of daughter’s parents.
3. An assessment of Miss XXXX ability to support and promote daughters’s relationship.

In support of that application, I have to find at least three experts*, to confirm whether they believe they are able to assist, their qualifications, what their fees would be and what timescale they would envisage in being able to complete all of the above things.

The Court requires that the above is obtained to be furnished with the application.
The Court will also require a draft formal ‘Letter of instruction’ to the proposed expert.
The timetable for the above is going to be entirely dictated by the expert.

 

[Ash]

Point 3 sounds like getting house valuations - you need three and then choose one - that's how I read it. No she doesn't say what kind of expert - whether it's an ISW or a psychologist. Best thing is probably just ask the solicitor what kind of expert she means. But clearly your solicitor suspects your ex is creating this situation and an expert would report on that and say she is unable or unwilling to promote your daughter's relationship with you. I would have thought a psychologist might be best for that but I'm not sure. A psychologist though would be a lot more money than an ISW and ISW's can also spot these things and write reports that say she's not going to promote a relationship and it's harmful to the child if she is creating the situation.

 

[Peanut 21]

Before proceeding with finding an expert the court will assess each parents financial situation to see if you could afford the experts fees.
They will then either give permission or not. The judge has final say on ordering an expert report as it costs the public purse a huge sum.

 

[Kev19]

Thank you all for your comments @Ash you said “But clearly your solicitor suspects your ex is creating this situation and an expert would report on that and say she is unable or unwilling to promote your daughter's relationship with you.”.
If she is unable to promote my daughter having a relationship with me what could that do for my case?