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Parental alienation vs Emotional abuse

Sorry - didn’t mean to cast a negative light on things. I was just going to say something else - Some of what happens might depend on the history. And what evidence you have at final hearing.

And you’ve just mentioned that. If there’s a history of her being disruptive then that would count against her having daughter live with her abroad. Especially if you have good evidence with your final statement showing her attitude and examples of the disruption and putting her own wishes before daughter’s needs.

I just don’t think they can prevent your ex moving to Poland. What they can do is either prevent your daughter moving to Poland or do a 50/50 order with daughter living in both countries at various times.

Presumably you could argue that ex is likely to not follow an order if she’s abroad due to the history.

What was the timing of her announcing her intention to move? In my case it was straight after final hearing! It was U.K. though so not as bad but the Judge basically hinted to her that it wasn’t a good idea and he was sure she wasn’t really going to move was she? In other words hinting she might lose residency if she did - which was a good bit of leverage. Ultimately she had to sign an undertaking not to move out of the region without having mediation to discuss charges to schedules (in other words to give me time to put in another PSO so she couldn’t do a moonlight flit).

She didn’t move.

That’s the kind of thing that can help - leverage arguments - but depends how maverick your ex is.

When it comes to Cafcass they don’t like to see hostility between parents and see that as harmful to the child so as a Dad you need to show you have tried to co parebt amicably and the hostility is one sided. Or the Mother is manipulating the child and you want an order that protects child from manipulation.

I don’t know the full history and maybe you have strong evidence to show ex is unlikely to follow court orders if she moved abroad.

Why did ex’s barrister write that order? It would normally be your barrister if it was your application. Or was it ex’s application for permission to move?
 
Oh I see what you meant about the order. This is part of the order from the judge last Monday after the First Hearing. She has re-establish overnight immediately (this weekend) and temporary child arrangements in the form of overnights during the weekend at suggestion from Cafcass. in the instruction with Cafcass is asking how the new arrangements have worked so far (till they do the report, I guess in October).

I have a PSO for not taking daughter of the country since the 5th of July.

Cafcass wanted to pursue the allegations of domestic violence and not taking care of the kid but judge dismissed a fact-finding (I guess she thought it was bs)

Cafcass will try to side with the mom but I will make sure they explain in what way it's good the restrictions the mom has put in place (unreasonable since a judge asked them to reinstate them immediately).

Ex's barrister was asking for the two of us to do handovers of the kid at our houses and the judge said that seeing what they were talking about issues in the past, handovers happened in a public place (as I suggested)

My view of the whole story is that judge wants to see daughter getting use to being with me overnight because if everything goes well, I could argue, there is no problem is extending it more to the shared custody.

I am sure cafcass will play mom's bias but I will prepare the argument against it. If we talk about the kid's wellbeing. it's not mom's bias.

The move abroad will mean I wont see my daughter again and will eventually will grow a stranger, if she has tried to do it here I cannot see how she wouldnt do it once she has custody. it's only a matter of time.
So until now you’ve not been getting overnights is that right? Even at week ends.

Ex’s legal team will have an agenda and arguments on the other side. The allegation of dv being one and using that as an excuse to stop your daughter spending overnights - eg claiming you’re not safe. And that is parental alienation if the dv allegation os false.

The problem with saying it’s PA is it comes across as you also making allegations. If your barrister or a psychologist calls it PA that’s usually more acceptable. It’s Bette to use words to describe it rather than the term PA. Like manipulation of child, making excuses to withhold child. Not putting child’s interests before her own wishes and feelings. Or - if child is displaying PA signs - describing the behaviour- like daughter parrots adult words on arrival, passing on messages. Or daughter’s personality changes and her behaviour is “alien” then she switches back to normal.

If both parents make allegations (true or otherwise) - Cafcass can label it as “conflict between parents “ being harmful to the child. Then they think to protect the child from conflict they leave them mostly with one parent. This is the strategy of an alienating parent. The worse they behave the more likely they are to get rid of you out of their lives one way or another. Either hoping you’ll get sick of the stress and disruption and give up. Or creating conflict so you both get tarred with the same brush and she gets rid of you that way - or if Cafcass give the child to one parent to keep them out of conflict it is usuallly the Mother - unless something like psychologists reports prove she is alienating and recommend residency with the Father.

So that’s why best to always show you’re the calm reasonable child focused one - which I’m sure you do.

I think the solution is likely to be 50/50 whether she goes abroad or not. But if she is permitted to move you’d have to say it needs to be residency with you and near 50/50 with ex. So you have the legal power and she can’t prevent you seeing your daughter.
 
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Sorry - didn’t mean to cast a negative light on things. I was just going to say something else - Some of what happens might depend on the history. And what evidence you have at final hearing.

And you’ve just mentioned that. If there’s a history of her being disruptive then that would count against her having daughter live with her abroad. Especially if you have good evidence with your final statement showing her attitude and examples of the disruption and putting her own wishes before daughter’s needs.

I just don’t think they can prevent your ex moving to Poland. What they can do is either prevent your daughter moving to Poland or do a 50/50 order with daughter living in both countries at various times.

Presumably you could argue that ex is likely to not follow an order if she’s abroad due to the history.

What was the timing of her announcing her intention to move? In my case it was straight after final hearing! It was U.K. though so not as bad but the Judge basically hinted to her that it wasn’t a good idea and he was sure she wasn’t really going to move was she? In other words hinting she might lose residency if she did - which was a good bit of leverage. Ultimately she had to sign an undertaking not to move out of the region without having mediation to discuss charges to schedules (in other words to give me time to put in another PSO so she couldn’t do a moonlight flit).

She didn’t move.

That’s the kind of thing that can help - leverage arguments - but depends how maverick your ex is.

When it comes to Cafcass they don’t like to see hostility between parents and see that as harmful to the child so as a Dad you need to show you have tried to co parebt amicably and the hostility is one sided. Or the Mother is manipulating the child and you want an order that protects child from manipulation.

I don’t know the full history and maybe you have strong evidence to show ex is unlikely to follow court orders if she moved abroad.

Why did ex’s barrister write that order? It would normally be your barrister if it was your application. Or was it ex’s application for permission to move?
We were in mediation and mediator sided with 50/50 so she didn't like it. Mediator set 2 weeks of schedule and by the end of it we were supposed to move it forward from 2-3-2 to 2-2-3 but of course she delayed it several times. so when she did the second time, I asked the mediator for the paper to go to court. Then is when she filed her application (I asked for the paper on Monday and filed on Friday same day as her) the PSO was sent on the following Monday.

the two applications were merged under hers. so her barrister wrote the order last Monday. Ex is going to do whatever but She has been very inconsistent and her domestic violence strategy didn't work out (Judge read it through).

To be honest, the impact of our daughter is zero because she hasnt seen anything, everything was through lawyers. Of course, the more animosity the better for Ex. I simply want shared cared with my daughter, I dont really care about her much :)
 
So until now you’ve not been getting overnights is that right? Even at week ends.

Ex’s legal team will have an agenda and arguments on the other side. The allegation of dv being one and using that as an excuse to stop your daughter spending overnights - eg claiming you’re not safe. And that is parental alienation if the dv allegation os false.

The problem with saying it’s PA is it comes across as you also making allegations. If your barrister or a psychologist calls it PA that’s usually more acceptable. It’s Bette to use words to describe it rather than the term PA. Like manipulation of child, making excuses to withhold child. Not putting child’s interests before her own wishes and feelings. Or - if child is displaying PA signs - describing the behaviour- like daughter parrots adult words on arrival, passing on messages. Or daughter’s personality changes and her behaviour is “alien” then she switches back to normal.
They tried that I wasnt safe but cafcass basically said I wasnt a danger to her, so overnights were reinstated but the insistence of Ex delaying overnight and not allowing it before the court hearing happened even when my mother was over is going to be a very hard fact to justify. If as she says she wants me to be part of daughter's life.
 
They tried that I wasnt safe but cafcass basically said I wasnt a danger to her, so overnights were reinstated but the insistence of Ex delaying overnight and not allowing it before the court hearing happened even when my mother was over is going to be a very hard fact to justify. If as she says she wants me to be part of daughter's life.
I understand judge's decision of starting with one night and then progress to two nights and do holidays (half term and xmas) because this is a foundation for extending it to 50/50. I am hoping for what fairness means that judge does hint that her behaviour has been wrong in terms of the best for daughter because I cannot understand the logic of detaching daughter from me is in "her best interest"
 
I just edited my last post before I read yours (maybe read back) :)

So you didn’t even have a court order before? It was being sorted at mediation and then she decided to move ?

That seems to strongly suggest she only decided to move to prevent the relationship with you so that makes your position stronger.

But until the section 7 is completed you won’t know what Cafcass is recommending. If it’s not in your favour you can argue against it at final hearing by putting Cafcass officer on the stand to be cross examined over their decisions (ie point out the flaws to the Judge).
 
I just edited my last post before I read yours (maybe read back) :)

So you didn’t even have a court order before? It was being sorted at mediation and then she decided to move ?

That seems to strongly suggest she only decided to move to prevent the relationship with you so that makes your position stronger.

But until the section 7 is completed you won’t know what Cafcass is recommending. If it’s not in your favour you can argue against it at final hearing by putting Cafcass officer on the stand to be cross examined over their decisions (ie point out the flaws to the Judge).
there hasn't been any order till last Monday, so Ex has pretty much done what she liked in terms of restricting overnight, weekday contact, contact with my family while they were over, telling lots of non sense, like you cannot do this or you cannot do that so the kid was coming and saying Mom has told me I cannot do this or that. Needless to say I ignored it and did the activity with her, after all, a kid can go to the swimming pool and to the beach (we all have done it with lots of cream, something to eat and drink :)))
 
How long have you been separated? Has she been like this since separation? If this is your first order (and you've done well to get an interim order) and mediation was going on to agree child arrangements, she has no excuse for suddenly deciding to move abroad - unless you separated very recently possibly.
 
I moved out by the end of March. Ex has been difficult and obstructive since January, when she hinted I was an abuser so I had to rush out of the flat, then she played the nice person ever, giving me recommendations of where to live, how to take care of daughter etc etc (i was the one taking care of her mostly because she was tired or busy).

She just wants to punish me because I left her and she is using my daughter for that. So she has to make up things to justify that. so her portfolio is around, he doesnt care about her, he cares about his work, he is not flexible, he abuses me in front of daughter, he doesnt know how to take care of her. I think I have covered most of it. I can actually pick one by one and give examples of her doing it and why I dont but too much work :)
 
Sounds fairly typical. So you separated in March, things amicable for a while (on her terms), and then out of the blue wants to move back to Poland after mediation? I think a Judge would see through that.

What happened to stop things being amicable? Was it that you wanted a more regular schedule and she wouldn't agree (hence mediation) - or did you meet someone else or something? That's a common reason for an ex kicking off and being obstructive.
 
Sounds fairly typical. So you separated in March, things amicable for a while (on her terms), and then out of the blue wants to move back to Poland after mediation? I think a Judge would see through that.

What happened to stop things being amicable? Was it that you wanted a more regular schedule and she wouldn't agree (hence mediation) - or did you meet someone else or something? That's a common reason for an ex kicking off and being obstructive.
Stopped being amicable when I was asking for more regular contact, there is no one else. Ex restricted contact immediately after I moved out. She started behaving weird. In the very beginning she was coming home and I found her a couple of times noseying around so I stopped inviting her over. , daughter started making statements that didn’t come from her as early as I moved out.
She asked me for after school and I said I would sort out them on my days. Her lawyer appeared into the picture saying I was aggressive in tone and that all negotiations about arrangements through her lawyer. So no more contact at home was done but in a public place and all comms through lawyer. Ex has ramped up on purpose things, then played it’s me.
 
Again - sounds fairly typical. At least you tried mediation.
 
And here it’s the mysterious power of a court order. Child hesitant and not wanting to spend the night with me. Mom arguing I dont pay attention to her feelings and that must be the reason. Today after the court order, no problem at all. Child says mom is telling me I will stay tonight. I asked her this afternoon to call her mom for a few minutes, child again says, no need I am going to sleep over tonight. Child sleeping like a log in her unicorn theme decorated room. Tomorrow swimming in a local pool.
the mysterious ways of the force. I wish court hearings were faster.
 
So everything good so far, statement from ex about relocation to Poland received, full of lies and now playing some sort of victimisation of how hard is being a single mother and the emotional and health impact when she could be in her home country with an old mom who is ill, she has even made up family that she doesn’t actually have. I have sent my statement basically saying why what she is proposing is not good for Our daughter. Now it’s time for section7. Any hints, advice on doing s7 Please?
 
Will post about that later ….Glad all is going well. Yes that’s all it needs isn’t it - for the Mother to tell the child what she’s doing rather than trying to scare her out of it or encourage her to refuse.

If her Mum is dying (if that’s true) it is a big thing but it’s not a reason to relocate permanently. Without wanting to sound cruel - when her Mum is gone she is no longer dying!

But you might need to be careful not to sound too unfeeling but yes stick to your guns over child’s best interests with both parebts. And propose some degree of temporary flexibility on both sides in the event of a grandparent imminently dying - eg exchanging some time. And saying you are happy to have your daughter longer if ex needs to help look after her Mother but don’t think it’s good for daughter to be involved in that.

Apart from anything else - you don’t want ex taking daughter out of the country without measures in place to prevent abduction.
 
So everything good so far, statement from ex about relocation to Poland received, full of lies and now playing some sort of victimisation of how hard is being a single mother and the emotional and health impact when she could be in her home country with an old mom who is ill, she has even made up family that she doesn’t actually have. I have sent my statement basically saying why what she is proposing is not good for Our daughter. Now it’s time for section7. Any hints, advice on doing s7 Please?
I had a terrible experience with Cafcass and the section 7 which thankfully was partially rectified by the judge.

I can post more about this later.
 
There’s no great rush to prepare for the section 7 (unless you’ve already got an appointment)? I haven’t had one but had similar type thing with social services which was a two hour face to face chat. I’ll let others who’ve had one share their experiences. As always with Cafcass or any social worker you need to accept that they are not a counsellor to offload on but they are analysing everything you say. So it’s fine to be straight and honest about some things as then you‘Ll come across as genuine. Having said that you have to avoid slagging off the Mother. But if you have any evidence of something bad she has done it could be an opportunity to show them. They’ll also look at your home and child’s room etc. in a way you want to be selling yourself as a great parent rather than a Dad who doesn’t like his ex - if that makes sense.
 
I think the reasons for opposing relocation and the fact that shared care for our daughter is paramount are very well described in my statement. It’s very fact based. After the experience I am convinced Ex shouldn’t have custody but visitation rights. It will avoid a lot of the abuse our daughter endured while ex was trying to reach her objective. Now I am trying to work out Maintenance payments, since ex wants much more than CMS calculator indicates as fair. So I think I will let CMS to calculate it based on my income and variations.
 
There is something going on that I dont really grasp. Ex is limiting the video conferences to focusing the walls or a corner, and runs if child does something different to change it. She has also started saying Mom says some tv character she likes is in Australia, so child wants to go to Australia
 
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