Occupation orders, Civil court, family courts, injunctions; the nightmare begins

[BrassTacks]

The ex actually contradicted herself in the statements and said she accepted I had an interest in the property!

I suggested to the judge that kicking the can down the road essentially facilitated the abuser with more tools by which to whip the victim… she didn’t take kindly to that :-/

 

[Ash]

No you do need to be slightly deferential with Judges. They are human and can warm to one party or another and they like to be addressed properly.

So if the ex has said she accepts you have an interest in the property, did the Judge determine that she had to pay you if she sold the house?

I don't quite understand - regardless of the ex saying it would sell in 6 to 8 weeks, the Judge asked for more evidence, which presumably means the ex is not allowed to sell until the Judge has seen more evidence (ie maybe the Judge was doing you a favour).

 

[Resolute]

What about putting an application for Prohibited Steps Order re. Selling the house and Schedule 1 of the Children Act for lump sum from proceeds of sale?

 

[Ash]

Or legal advice on doing this?

 

[BrassTacks]

Is it 15 minutes? Have you submitted basis and particulars?

EDIT
Have you explored Schedule 1 of the Children Act?

Thank you @Resolute - I’ve spent a fair bit on advice to date and no one has mentioned this option … looks interesting esp. the option to make settlement of property orders on behalf of a child!

I had a barrister advise on the application and no mention of basis and particulars - he reviewed the application and statement :-0
The judge threw it out on the basis it needed basis and relevant particulars
So back to the drawing board again

 

[BrassTacks]

What about putting an application for Prohibited Steps Order re. Selling the house and Schedule 1 of the Children Act for lump sum from proceeds of sale?

Afraid this is getting too complex.

I really appreciate the advice and the input- can’t tell you how supportive it feels.

But the law is so complex when one is in a civil court ….
I asked it to be in private… as child matters were involved… but even that needs some kind of application! It never ends :-(

 

[BrassTacks]

If you are anything but reasonable it is likely to give her a quicker and easier win. They do not win every time. In many cases neither side wins. The proceedings can be over in 6-12 months and staying in the picture is a big victory for dads in your situation. Mine turned 5 a month after me and the ex split. She recently had her 8th birthday. If I had disappeared when she was 5, she would barely know who I am at this point.

My personal view is that the three years from 5 to 8 are enormously important.

This is true - I’ve no doubt the kids are better off with their father in most cases

 

[BrassTacks]

I was more thinking about appeal the judges decision

 

[Resolute]

I was more thinking about appeal the judges decision

My understanding is that Basis and Particulars should have been filed and served before the first ToLATA hearing, along with N1 Claim Form. Not sure what grounds for appeal would be.

Sch 1 of Children Act is complicated and I do not presume to advise. I do know it can be an application that runs alongside ToLATA and it gives a chance of both being held in private.

Here is a very detailed video in case you are up for it:

Resolving property disputes in a cohabitation context: ToLATA and Schedule 1 - St John's Chambers

www.stjohnschambers.co.uk

 

[BrassTacks]

@Resolute - that’s a fab resource : thank you.
Seems like I have to soldier on.
Still trying to understand if I go the schedule 1 route or make a c2 application.

 

[Resolute]

Some of this stuff is so complicated that people with years of legal education, training, and experience, struggle to agree. The ToLATA/Sch 1 conundrum is does not invite simple/easy answers. I have read that consolidation of these cases is against precedent, in another place I read that it is standard practice. Interpretation and application of case law in this area is quite subtle.

I think this is why Ash's comment about legal advice was so liked!

Leaving aside how this is best achieved, from what you have written, I believe your first aim has to be obstructing quick sale of the property. If I were you, I'd probably be drawn to the option which gives best chance of doing this. Obviously, you also need to assess any impact this option would have on the path that follows.

 

[Ash]

@Resolute - that’s a fab resource : thank you.
Seems like I have to soldier on.
Still trying to understand if I go the schedule 1 route or make a c2 application.

You could try asking a question on Just Answer for between £30 and £40 and ask a lawyer - some are good, some are a bit brief. But you should get the answers. You can keep disussing on there till you get the answer you need. Usually reliable.

 

[BrassTacks]

Some of this stuff is so complicated that people with years of legal education, training, and experience, struggle to agree. The ToLATA/Sch 1 conundrum is does not invite simple/easy answers. I have read that consolidation of these cases is against precedent, in another place I read that it is standard practice. Interpretation and application of case law in this area is quite subtle.

I think this is why Ash's comment about legal advice was so liked!

Leaving aside how this is best achieved, from what you have written, I believe your first aim has to be obstructing quick sale of the property. If I were you, I'd probably be drawn to the option which gives best chance of doing this. Obviously, you also need to assess any impact this option would have on the path that follows.

Sadly legal advice has been bleak; which is totally shocking.
The only remedy in this case is financial remedy. ie money is split after the sale.

 

[BrassTacks]

You could try asking a question on Just Answer for between £30 and £40 and ask a lawyer - some are good, some are a bit brief. But you should get the answers. You can keep disussing on there till you get the answer you need. Usually reliable.

Good shout
Justanswer is surprisingly a good realise; one has to look around for the one that is able to respond helpfully…

 

[BrassTacks]

Some very helpful comments and experiences shared so far.
Things are getting a little complicated and petty on my side, so it is becoming hard to keep my head high and calm.. (car being locked away just before the school pickup and club run by ex) and printer being removed the night of the hearing by ex...)
Being able to stay at home with the kids under an occupation order has its challenges, and as everyone frequently says, you have to be whiter than white as every behavior or comment will potentially will be a risk.

 

[MagicJ]

Some very helpful comments and experiences shared so far.
Things are getting a little complicated and petty on my side, so it is becoming hard to keep my head high and calm.. (car being locked away just before the school pickup and club run by ex) and printer being removed the night of the hearing by ex...)
Being able to stay at home with the kids under an occupation order has its challenges, and as everyone frequently says, you have to be whiter than white as every behavior or comment will potentially will be a risk.

Just record in a diary all these petty events.

They may not amount to anything individually but collectively I'd hope(?) they can be used with a handful of examples to point to character, behaviour and expectation without a proper order.

Childish behaviour really, you've just got to expect the worst and plan for those contingencies.

 

[BrassTacks]

Just record in a diary all these petty events.

They may not amount to anything individually but collectively I'd hope(?) they can be used with a handful of examples to point to character, behaviour and expectation without a proper order.

Childish behaviour really, you've just got to expect the worst and plan for those contingencies.

That’s really a good idea. I regret not having done this, but you’re right - they all add up.

 

[BrassTacks]

So in court today. It of us in represented.

Astoundingly the ex makes a non-particularised allegation with a picture that I assaulted the teenager in the home when she was out.
I can’t even remember any altercation, and certainly did not and would not assault a boy.

This is a tragic start to a predictable journey
I cannot even begin to imagine how the children are going to be negatively affected.

 

[MagicJ]

So in court today. It of us in represented.

Astoundingly the ex makes a non-particularised allegation with a picture that I assaulted the teenager in the home when she was out.
I can’t even remember any altercation, and certainly did not and would not assault a boy.

This is a tragic start to a predictable journey
I cannot even begin to imagine how the children are going to be negatively affected.

You're a good dad, you are focused on what is best for your children.

Your best approach in a situation with allegations is to keep yourself child focused & to calmly deny any allegations.

 

[BrassTacks]

What a day.

I once again cannot re-emphasise the stress and personal issues this causes that ultimately spill over to the children.

My ex tried again to kick me out, siting abuse against the older child.
When ask to detail it, it was a total non issue.
I offered lots of compromises.

So I’ve still a roof over my head, but more importantly unrestricted contact

I volunteered multiple promises to the court not to be abusife to anyone in the family (surprisingly the ex didn’t ask for the same
Still many more hearings to go, but ex threatened another non-mol and C1A, so the merry dance goes on.