Mum Taking Child Abroad for 3 Months

[Resolute]

I suggest you have a read of this:

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/missing-person/missing-persons/parental-child-abduction/

My understanding is that if you have PR, your ex needs your consent to take child out of the country for more than a month.

I would look into the idea of a Port Alert. Not instead of recommendations above, but as a potential supplementary effort.

As always, you are likely face abuse allegations as soon as you show the temerity to place any limit on your ex's chaos.

 

[Ash]

I think Ash makes some valid points as per usual.

I would take up the 3 months of having him with you and this will work out one of two ways, it happens or excuses come.

In any event whichever way it goes, I’d file the C100 looking to have him full time, a court is not likely to find the situation of no education and bouncing round every 3 months to be in his best interest.
I think she will find it very hard to defend that position, and if he is with you for those 3 months she’s not going to be in a position to withhold contact.

PSO may be a good idea to set the boundary out. But that might put a spanner in the works of accepting having him for the 3 months.

Bottom line here tho, you need a CAO in place to cement your time and then bolt on the schooling imo.

That is a good point. You mean take the 3 months offered and then apply for a specific issues order over schooling while ex is overseas? He might get a temporary order for that in ex's absence, with a further hearing for when she returns.

That would really piss her off though. And I don't think she is actually really offering him that 3 months. She knows he can't home school and she would only agree to him having the child for those 3 months, if he agreed to home school. He would look bad if he agreed to do it and then didn't do it.

But that is an option yes. Take the three months, then enrol him in school and put a court application in. I can't see her letting him have the three months though - it's just a pretend offer. What she really wants is to take the child abroad for three months - and the only way to disagree that or stop that, is a prohibited steps order. Otherwise she could go and not come back.

No court would allow a child to miss three months of schooling. The court will be on your side here.

I don;t think you need a solicitor either. By all means get some advice from a solicitor, but I wouldn't start paying them money to do applications for you - you can do the applications yourself, with help on here. I'd save your money for a direct access barrister for a hearing after the application. Because it's at hearings where decisions get made and orders made. A direct access barrister would write the order much better than a solicitor and also be a more experienced advocate on your behalf. Acting for you. IMO 99% of solicitors are a bit Mum biased and don't fight your corner well.

If it was me I would put in an application, at the very least, for PSO and SIO at the same time. Because you need to prevent her removing your child from the country for three months. The PSO. If she decides to go anyway, you then need permission to enrol him into a school.

The chances are though, if you get a PSO, your ex will cancel her own plans to go overseas because she doesn't really want to leave the child with you for three months and have him enrolled in a school. And she may then get difficult about you seeing the child at all. Because you stopped her stealing the child away! So on that basis you need a Child Arrangements Application on the form as well.

So I think you need a C100 for:

1) Urgent PSO - 48 hours notice
2) Urgent SIO re schooling - 48 hours notice
3) Child Arrangements Order.

There is a chance a Child Arrangements order could be achieved at the same short notice hearing, but only by agreement - ie consent order. Eg if she agrees to your current schedule being in an order. And agrees to half school holidays with each parent.

Home schooling is not intended to allow a child to miss schooling and go abroad for three months!

I suspect even she wouldn't suspend home schooling for three months and her plan may just be to leave the country and enrol him in schooling abroad. Start a new life with her partner and your son abroad.

The country she is taking him to (which I removed from your earlier post for identification reasons) is NOT something that the Hague Convention covers. Once your son is there you would not be able to get him back. The Uk courts have NO JURISDICTION in that country.

So URGENT PSO - you could fill in the form today and email it. Plus SIO for schooling - even if the schooling aspect gets dealt with at a later hearing.

At the hearing also, you could as Resolute suggests and ask for a Port block.

You could also fill out the PSO form tonight and take it into court first thing tomorrow morning and get a same day hearing and a PSO tomorrow.

 

[JayMC]

That is a good point. You mean take the 3 months offered and then apply for a specific issues order over schooling while ex is overseas? He might get a temporary order for that in ex's absence, with a further hearing for when she returns.

That would really piss her off though. And I don't think she is actually really offering him that 3 months. She knows he can't home school and she would only agree to him having the child for those 3 months, if he agreed to home school. He would look bad if he agreed to do it and then didn't do it.

But that is an option yes. Take the three months, then enrol him in school and put a court application in. I can't see her letting him have the three months though - it's just a pretend offer. What she really wants is to take the child abroad for three months - and the only way to disagree that or stop that, is a prohibited steps order. Otherwise she could go and not come back.

No court would allow a child to miss three months of schooling. The court will be on your side here.

I don;t think you need a solicitor either. By all means get some advice from a solicitor, but I wouldn't start paying them money to do applications for you - you can do the applications yourself, with help on here. I'd save your money for a direct access barrister for a hearing after the application. Because it's at hearings where decisions get made and orders made. A direct access barrister would write the order much better than a solicitor and also be a more experienced advocate on your behalf. Acting for you. IMO 99% of solicitors are a bit Mum biased and don't fight your corner well.

If it was me I would put in an application, at the very least, for PSO and SIO at the same time. Because you need to prevent her removing your child from the country for three months. The PSO. If she decides to go anyway, you then need permission to enrol him into a school.

The chances are though, if you get a PSO, your ex will cancel her own plans to go overseas because she doesn't really want to leave the child with you for three months and have him enrolled in a school. And she may then get difficult about you seeing the child at all. Because you stopped her stealing the child away! So on that basis you need a Child Arrangements Application on the form as well.

So I think you need a C100 for:

1) Urgent PSO - 48 hours notice
2) Urgent SIO re schooling - 48 hours notice
3) Child Arrangements Order.

There is a chance a Child Arrangements order could be achieved at the same short notice hearing, but only by agreement - ie consent order. Eg if she agrees to your current schedule being in an order. And agrees to half school holidays with each parent.

Home schooling is not intended to allow a child to miss schooling and go abroad for three months!

I suspect even she wouldn't suspend home schooling for three months and her plan may just be to leave the country and enrol him in schooling abroad. Start a new life with her partner and your son abroad.

The country she is taking him to (which I removed from your earlier post for identification reasons) is NOT something that the Hague Convention covers. Once your son is there you would not be able to get him back. The Uk courts have NO JURISDICTION in that country.

So URGENT PSO - you could fill in the form today and email it. Plus SIO for schooling - even if the schooling aspect gets dealt with at a later hearing.

At the hearing also, you could as Resolute suggests and ask for a Port block.

You could also fill out the PSO form tonight and take it into court first thing tomorrow morning and get a same day hearing and a PSO tomorrow.

Yes, exactly.
By saying no outright he’s playing into her game (we all suspect it’s a false offer).
By saying yes to that offer, she either lets it happen (and we are all wrong) or she will make excuses in which case the game is up.

Obviously two different ways this could go all of which lead to the same outcome.

Obviously this is a delicate game of chicken because the PSO will piss her off so that may be her excuse to not give him the child for 3 months.

However if she is genuine, that is an excellent chance of not only having the child, arranging schooling and getting the ball rolling permanently.

The flip side is the side that doesn’t bear thinking about, she elopes with the child and he loses out for years or forever.

If it were me, I’d file the PSO today as urgent. But also say yes to having him for the 3 months, because then it boxes her into a corner:
she cancels the trip (great)
She leaves the child with dad (great)
She goes anyway (not great)

Although having looked at it, he could apply for a port alert along with the PSO.
If a port alert was granted by the court she won’t know it exists given it’s an urgent without notice order.

I think a port alert is definitely an important thing to consider here

 

[DadM]

I spoke with a company that offers advice for this kind of thing. This is the suggestion:

Write to the mother, confirming that I do not consent to the trip. Spelling out that I cannot homeschool our son due to work, but would be happy to have him full-time if he started going to school.

Should she not respond or say they’re still going anyway, suggest mediation, or more realistically ask for an emergency hearing for a PSO.

I will be sending a detailed email to her tonight

 

[Resolute]

Just imagine, purely hypothetically, you have an informal flexible working arrangement, or a tutor, lined up to facilitate home learning.

If either arrangement fell through, you could be left with no option but to enrol in a local school.

I doubt anybody would condemn a parent for sending their child to school.

 

[Resolute]

I spoke with a company that offers advice for this kind of thing. This is the suggestion:

Write to the mother, confirming that I do not consent to the trip. Spelling out that I cannot homeschool our son due to work, but would be happy to have him full-time if he started going to school.

Should she not respond or say they’re still going anyway, suggest mediation, or more realistically ask for an emergency hearing for a PSO.

I will be sending a detailed email to her tonight

I would be wary of that approach. It puts your ex on notice without any protections in place. Her easy move at that point would be to redirect to a jurisdiction outside of the Hague Convention.

I'd be drawn to an urgent, without notice, prohibited steps application and a Port Alert. The way to get ammo for this is to play along with the idea of having child with you for the three months. If it works, fine, you are in charge. If she refuses, that is the trigger for urgent action.

 

[Ash]

Absolutely agree with Resolute there. I think the priority is the PSO. It would be a "without notice" hearing. ie only you, and ex wouldn't know - not straight away anyway.

I believe you have already told her you can't do home schooling - hence her offer of him staying with you for three months is no longer on the table.

I would not send something as advised. You will just alert her that you might be applying to court as Resolute says.

Prioritise the PSO.

If you do send anything at all this evening - I would send this

"Hi. I am not in agreement with xxxxxxxx going abroad for three months to xxxxxxxxx and am happy to have him here for those three months, as you suggested, if you wish to go."

She will probably reply "Well if you do you will have to home school him and you said you can't do that".

To which you would have to be honest and say "I am unable to home school him as I work, so he would need to be enrolled in school".

And she would just say well I'm taking him abroad then.

So to be honest I think this is going round in circles. The offer of him staying with you for three months is based on you home schooling, which you can't do. You can't lie and say yes you'll do it. That would lead to her wanting all sorts of information anyway.

So the best way to deal with it is via a PSO application and you can word it reasonably so there is nothing to annoy the ex - which I can help with. She won't see it straight away, but she would read it later. You say what you want to say in the application.

Who was it gave you that advice? This is an urgent matter.

 

[Ash]

Just to check though. Have discussions been verbal so far rather than in writing? It would help to have something in writing that proves she has said she wants to take him abroad for three months and offered for you to have him if you home school him.

If you already have that then I wouldn't message her and start an argument. If it's all been verbal then just send her that short message above and see what she replies with.

You don't need to have mediation when it's an urgent application.

 

[DadM]

Just to check though. Have discussions been verbal so far rather than in writing? It would help to have something in writing that proves she has said she wants to take him abroad for three months and offered for you to have him if you home school him.

If you already have that then I wouldn't message her and start an argument. If it's all been verbal then just send her that short message above and see what she replies with.

You don't need to have mediation when it's an urgent application.

There have been texts which have gone basically like this:

I want to take him abroad.
I don’t agree to that.
I can leave him with you but he will not be going to school.
That’s not feasible.
We are 100% going on the trip so all you need to decide is whether you’re having him or not.

That’s the gist of it so far, but I have all those text messages.

 

[Ash]

That is probably enough evidence really. But as she has said you need to decide whether you're having him or not you could send one further reply but include specific dates and the name of the country.

"Just to confirm that I don't agree to xxxxxxxx going to xxxxxxxxxxx for three months and yes I would like to keep him with me.".

Don't mention school. See what she replies.

I'd also get the C100 filled out tonight as well.

 

[Resolute]

That is probably enough evidence really. But as she has said you need to decide whether you're having him or not you could send one further reply but include specific dates and the name of the country.

"Just to confirm that I don't agree to xxxxxxxx going to xxxxxxxxxxx for three months and yes I would like to keep him with me.".

Don't mention school. See what she replies.

I'd also get the C100 filled out tonight as well.

It might be a good idea to get on with the C100 and send the text when it is done. You could do it tonight with 2-3 hours of hyper focus.

Be ready to strike.

 

[DadM]

I’m confused as to what’s best to do now. Send the written confirmation, or just apply for the C100. Where does the form go once I have filled it out? Do I pay at that stage?

 

[Ash]

Both. You could send this message

"Just to confirm that I don't agree to xxxxxxxx going to xxxxxxxxxxx for three months and yes I would like to keep him with me."

Which means you have something in formal in writing that shows you don't agree to a specific time abroad in a specific place.

She will no doubt respond - well you'll have to home school him then. Or she might say - well you can't home school him so you can't have him. But it doesn't really matter what she replies - the main thing is you have a clear confirmation in writing that you don't agree and want to have your son.

At the same time you fill in the C100 application this evening, which I can help with. Assuming she refuses to let your son stay with you unless you agree to home schooling, then ideally you would take the C100 into court in the morning and wait, to get a same day hearing.

If that is impossible then you email it and ask for a 24 hour hearing - which wouldn't be until next week now.

 

[Resolute]

"Just to confirm that I don't agree to xxxxxxxx going to xxxxxxxxxxx for three months and yes I would like to keep him with me.".

Sending the above message will be the trigger to your next step. I am suggesting you should complete the C100 so you are ready to react to whatever comes from the above text. If you do the C100 in person, you can pay at the court I believe.

 

[DadM]

I am completing the C100 with Ash’s help. She wants a discussion with me on Monday when I take my son back.
I have a real job on my hands regarding him going back to school. She has filled his head with so much nonsense.

 

[Resolute]

I am completing the C100 with Ash’s help. She wants a discussion with me on Monday when I take my son back.
I have a real job on my hands regarding him going back to school. She has filled his head with so much nonsense.

Discussions are all well and good, but it is stuff on writing that matters. I wonder why she wants it to be a discussion.

 

[Ash]

Form should be ok to go off Sunday evening as nothing will happen before Monday now anyway. I take it she didn't reply to your last message and is avoiding putting something in writing then.

 

[DadM]

Form should be ok to go off Sunday evening as nothing will happen before Monday now anyway. I take it she didn't reply to your last message and is avoiding putting something in writing then.

She didn’t reply to that, no.
I will speak to her briefly on Monday morning, but I know it won’t be productive. She thinks she has all the power and can do what she wants.
I assume I shouldn’t mention a court order at that stage? Would she just find out from the courts once it’s been processed?

 

[Ash]

I've had a look at the screenshots. That section for wording is equivalent to the 5b section on the form I linked. It's a bit long and I would tweak that quite a bit because there are some ways of saying things that are better from a legal point of view and for a Judge to get when he reads it, Also anything you put in writing on the initial application needs to be careful - tone as well as certain ways of getting across the issue.

If you prefer to use the online form then that's a choice. But is there anywhere on it that is equivalent to ticking who does the child live with, and the option to tick both parents? Last time I looked they only gave the option for one address. It might also take a bit longer to get processed as it goes to a central place first then on to the local court.

Also it's better not to say you've asked the child something. Courts don't like that. If both parents are asking the child what they want, it puts the child in the middle. They expect parents to reach agreements and then both inform the child what they've agreed and why so the child has certainty and a united front. So even if your ex is doing it, I wouldn't mention anything he has said to you or he might get into trouble from ex and stop telling you things. (This happened to me so I speak from experience!).

Do you mind if I ask which region you're in/nearest city? Different regions vary with how they deal with applications.

She didn’t reply to that, no.
I will speak to her briefly on Monday morning, but I know it won’t be productive. She thinks she has all the power and can do what she wants.
I assume I shouldn’t mention a court order at that stage? Would she just find out from the courts once it’s been processed?

No most definitely do not mention anything to do with court! Not right now.

She is clearly avoiding replying in writing so she doesn't have to commit herself in writing - so she may be slightly on the alert that you are getting more formal about things and is only wanting to do verbal discussion.

Be very careful what you say when you speak to her. Also keep it civilised or she might start accusing you of something. ie don't get stroppy or have an argument. Listen mostly.

Before then we can have your application fine tuned ready to go.

I'm sorry you're also having issues with your current partner. What kind of issues? Mine wasn't happy about a lot of things in the early days but she accepted the way things were eventually.