Moving Advice / Help Needed

[winger]

Hey everyone! I've not been on for a while as been focusing on stuff and now this has just happened, I'd appreciate as much advice as possible!

I've recently had my final hearing which went ok, it's a gradual increase to equal holidays and time with both parents, there's 1 day in it which I'll push for to make it completely equal. It's a lives with order.

A few days after the hearing my ex says she has had a job offer which would be a complete change of location. At the moment we are in South West and the job offer is about 3.5 hours away.

Since being here, me and my daughter have built a community of friends, we are very happy here. But there are cons too, no family here, family are near the job location (so that's a plus) and a few more big cons of staying here which I won't mention, but would be much better without, for my daughter.

The thing is the order is kind of minimal at the moment. It's progressive, but over a long time, which isn't what I hoped for but at least it's building up to equal.

Ex is expecting me to drive back and forth, many hours of driving every week, for the same time with my daughter. Which would be exhausting, and would no doubt affect my daughter too (I'm in exhausted our time together isn't going to be as good) not to mention her being uprooted from her community and friends. (Daughter is 2 and a half) plus making work near impossible.

I've tried to say that it needs to be more fair and equal so my daughter is with me and spends quality time with me and family. So instead of 1 night with me she is with me 3 nights in the week. Which would enable us both to work, and me to travel a lot less, plus way more quality time together. I can't move house yet. It would be a while until I could, but even then, I'd be doing this for the ex mostly, she really wants this job. Me and daughter would benefit too but it would be way more of a struggle for us. Which it isn't at the moment.

Basically I'm willing to do all the driving, I am trying to be reasonable with someone who is being unreasonable and thinks she has all the control. She barely replies to emails, so it's hard to even communicate about all this, but that's how she's been since we met.

Where do I stand legally? She waited to say all this until after the final hearing. Could I apply for my daughter to live with me? What are the chances? What's the best way forward?

If the schedule was more fair I would agree on moving, as I see the benefits, but not as is it as nothing changes for me and my daughter it just makes things harder. Ex is thinking of herself over me and even over our daughter it seems, otherwise she would be communicating more and being more reasonable.

There's loads more to this but I don't want to say details.

Hope all that makes sense my head's in a whirl with it all!

 

[Resolute]

Has the move happened yet?

If it has not there may be a possibility of a prohibited steps order. Depending on circumstances. Even if PSO is not possible, the process might result in a renegotiation of the order to fit with her planned move. I find it difficult not to think that her move is an attempt to find ways of chipping away at your order and getting a second bite at the cherry.

 

[Ash]

Hi Winger. This is absolutely typical behaviour after achieving a shared care order in court. Yes I would think about putting in a prohibited steps application to prohibit "Mother moving child away". The same thing happened to me after a final hearing for a shared care order and I also had to do prohibited steps. As it happened my ex didn't move in the end (I think she was deterred by the Judge).

She would have to prove she has a good reason for moving (ie prove the job offer). It's a tricky one because it's the Mother's human right to live wherever she wants, so they can't stop her moving, but they could say the child shouldn't move (which would mean asking for child to live with you if ex moves). That seems like a long shot as well.

To get that you or your barrister would need to show that she was moving to disrupt the order and relationship with your child.

I'd start by putting the prohibited steps application in. Same form. C100.

 

[winger]

Thank you. She acknowledges she can't move without my agreement, so I don't think a PTO is needed. Maybe I'm wrong. If she says she's moving anyway, and not trying to come to an agreement I'll put it in.

 

[winger]

Has the move happened yet?

If it has not there may be a possibility of a prohibited steps order. Depending on circumstances. Even if PSO is not possible, the process might result in a renegotiation of the order to fit with her planned move. I find it difficult not to think that her move is an attempt to find ways of chipping away at your order and getting a second bite at the cherry.

No it hasn't, she's asking me if I agree to it.

 

[Ash]

Could you move as well? Don't agree to anything yet. Presumably distance and travel would prevent the schedule progressing to a full shared care order and no midweek nights.

 

[Resolute]

Thank you. She acknowledges she can't move without my agreement, so I don't think a PTO is needed. Maybe I'm wrong. If she says she's moving anyway, and not trying to come to an agreement I'll put it in.

There is a risk with waiting. If you do not apply for a PSO in advance, it will already be too late. Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I am not saying this is decisive. It depends on how much you trust her. If asking you is not her just going through the motions. Your logic is good.

 

[Ash]

I wonder, if you said no, you don't agree, if she would apply for a specific issues order for permission to move. It's either that or prohibited steps to raise the issue via the courts.

She would be in breach of the shared care order if she just moved without your permission, but that has been done before, and once a child has been moved and settled in a new home and nursery (even for a couple of weeks) the court won't move them back again.

So I agree with Resolute it would be better to act now.

 

[winger]

Could you move as well? Don't agree to anything yet. Presumably distance and travel would prevent the schedule progressing to a full shared care order and no midweek nights.

Yes I could but not immediately, it would take months to sell the house, and the distance and travel is crazy. I don't see it is fair or just that I do this, considering what she has done. But it's also not the best thing for my daughter, not with the arrangement how it is.

So you think a PTO. Would we need to go to court for this? How about a specific issue order if she did this?

She is absolutely adamant she doesn't want to go to court again.

 

[winger]

Also, if I applied for that, could I say if the CAO was more equal then I would be open to this, but how it is currently is not best for our daughter if she were to move, due to distance etc. And could it be changed?

 

[Ash]

There are lots of reasons. But the welfare of the child is the priority. In my case I got an undertaking which basically prevented my ex doing a moonlight flit (as some Mothers do) so she had to have mediation if she was ever thinking of moving.

If you apply for prohibited steps, it's an urgent application and you get a quick hearing. And you say you don't agree to your daughter being moved from the region.

If your ex actually does have a job offer then that is one reason they would give permission. And then you'd need to argue she applied for a job at a distance to disrupt the CAO and there was no mention of this at final hearing.

I know when I was in this situation and worried about losing/ex moving I was working out how to rent out my house and move closer.

 

[Resolute]

She is absolutely adamant she doesn't want to go to court again.

This is another one that comes down to trust.

Is she willing to vary her plans to avoid court?

Does she want you to think she won't apply so you do not need to worry in the short term?

Is it possible she has already filed an SIO application?

If you do not want to go straight to PSO application. You could propose a variation by consent that would make you accept the move. Wait 7 days for her to respond. Put in the PSO if she does not agree. It is all risky.

 

[Ash]

It is risky. First hint of a Mother moving away usually leads to a PS application. I can't see how variation would work at that distance either - it would prevent midweek overnights which would make her the parent with care and you would no longer have a shared care order. Unless she agreed to child spending 3 weekends out of four with you and nearly all the school holidays (and I know she isn't at school yet, but equivalent). And that much travel wouldn't be good for a two and a half year old so if the court did get involved Cafcass are likely to say that arrangement wouldn't be suitable.

Whatever your ex says, what she is doing is creating a situation whereby you would become an every other week-end Dad and she would be the primary carer. ie she is trying to get out of the shared care order and she knows that!

So I would put in a prohibited steps application. By all means word it non confrontationally. What that does is prevent her moving/moving the child - at least temporarily - until it's been resolved via the courts, whether by agreement or order.

It's tricky because while you might want to be reasonable and think a move and a good job would be good for her, you're also a parent and need to think of the effect on your child.

 

[winger]

Very tricky.
I'm happy to move, because my family is closer. But at the same time I think it needs to be varied because I'm essentially doing her a massive favour by moving, as is my daughter, we don't have to.

I'll see what happens. I don't think she is even thinking of filing anything to court.

Can solicitors draw up a legally binding agreement between us if we were to agree extra days of a different arrangement?

 

[Pj66]

Hey everyone! I've not been on for a while as been focusing on stuff and now this has just happened, I'd appreciate as much advice as possible!

I've recently had my final hearing which went ok, it's a gradual increase to equal holidays and time with both parents, there's 1 day in it which I'll push for to make it completely equal. It's a lives with order.

A few days after the hearing my ex says she has had a job offer which would be a complete change of location. At the moment we are in South West and the job offer is about 3.5 hours away.

Since being here, me and my daughter have built a community of friends, we are very happy here. But there are cons too, no family here, family are near the job location (so that's a plus) and a few more big cons of staying here which I won't mention, but would be much better without, for my daughter.

The thing is the order is kind of minimal at the moment. It's progressive, but over a long time, which isn't what I hoped for but at least it's building up to equal.

Ex is expecting me to drive back and forth, many hours of driving every week, for the same time with my daughter. Which would be exhausting, and would no doubt affect my daughter too (I'm in exhausted our time together isn't going to be as good) not to mention her being uprooted from her community and friends. (Daughter is 2 and a half) plus making work near impossible.

I've tried to say that it needs to be more fair and equal so my daughter is with me and spends quality time with me and family. So instead of 1 night with me she is with me 3 nights in the week. Which would enable us both to work, and me to travel a lot less, plus way more quality time together. I can't move house yet. It would be a while until I could, but even then, I'd be doing this for the ex mostly, she really wants this job. Me and daughter would benefit too but it would be way more of a struggle for us. Which it isn't at the moment.

Basically I'm willing to do all the driving, I am trying to be reasonable with someone who is being unreasonable and thinks she has all the control. She barely replies to emails, so it's hard to even communicate about all this, but that's how she's been since we met.

Where do I stand legally? She waited to say all this until after the final hearing. Could I apply for my daughter to live with me? What are the chances? What's the best way forward?

If the schedule was more fair I would agree on moving, as I see the benefits, but not as is it as nothing changes for me and my daughter it just makes things harder. Ex is thinking of herself over me and even over our daughter it seems, otherwise she would be communicating more and being more reasonable.

There's loads more to this but I don't want to say details.

Hope all that makes sense my head's in a whirl with it all!

Hey winger,

What was the progressive order you had made at the final hearing?

Also what happened with the relocation in the end?

 

[winger]

Hey winger,

What was the progressive order you had made at the final hearing?

Also what happened with the relocation in the end?

Hello!

The order made was a progressive order until my daughter started school. It would eventually be 6 nights out of 14. All holidays shared equally. But only Tue - Wed, and all day Friday, eventually Friday - Sunday. But it was a long time to wait for that, plus the timing for handovers wasn't good, it meant the days weren't equal at all, and actually would end up only being a day or two. And to me it's the days that matter. I love having my daughter staying over, which she does a lot now, but quality time is in the day.

Anyway, very basically, I talked to my ex partner and basically said to her if she wanted to move and take the new job, everything needs to be fair and equal for our daughter, that's all I've ever wanted. She actually listened, and started being amicable.
So now I have Sunday - Wednesday, early morning Sunday to Wednesday evening. Considerably better than the order, and my daughter is so much happier. Also there's understanding that equality is important, fairness, and it needs to be in place for our daughter. No more messing about basically.

The ex should have actually communicated in the first place. A LOT of money and stress for everyone, including a lot for my daughter, would have been saved, if ex would just have talked and been amicable from the beginning.