Maybe its me!

[NCR]

Hi all,

I am new here and would really appreciate some advice.

I live in London and my ex wife moved back to Kent, where her family is, with our 2 children.
We have been divorced for 2 years now.
For the past 2 years my kids have not been able to travel to me in London so I have been driving the 220m round trip every Sunday to be with them.
I have recently decided to rent a flat very close to them so that they can spend the night with me.
My ex contacted the CMS in December to inform them that I should be paying her more than the annual review required which has subsequently prompted them to request an income providence from me.
Should I claim the rental property as an expense?
My sole.purpose for renting it is to be near my kids and provide a home for them to stay over night.
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[NCR]

I started a new job last year which has barely allowed me to cover the rental.

 

[NCR]

The reason I have titled this 'Maybe its me' is because I have done everything within my power to support my kids and ex but I feel constantly Hood winked by her and the system.
I am constantly tip toeing around her and her family just to have time with my kids.
I feel that no matter what I do it is a struggle which I am willing to endure for my kids sake but there must be a better more transparent way....

 

[Ash]

Hi there. I am not sure what they can allow as expenses but my understanding is it is purely assessed on a percentage of your gross income, regardless of your expenses. Is there some way you can reach an agreement with your ex? CMS accept people having a "family based arrangement" where you agree a set amount a month that doesn't go up or down. At least you are getting to see the kids because some ex's try to prevent that as well as get more money.

In fact it sounds like she might have done this because the CM will go down if you have the kids overnight. It could be worth trying to talk to her and try and reach a regular monthly amount with the argument that it won't fluctuate with your income so it's a guaranteed monthly sum.

With CMS all you can do is provide what they ask for. But it could be worth phoning them and explaining that you have paid as per assessment all along and are about to have overnights with your children, which will reduce the CMS, but are interested in trying to reach a family based arrangement with your ex. However she seems to think you have undisclosed funds and you assume they already know what your funds are by means of assessing your income via the tax office (which is what they do).

I have found before that if you speak to them politely as a human being and express your concern and worry about the situation and let them know the situation and your reliability and willingness, they can actually be quite helpful. Do you have undisclosed funds by they way?! I am not entirely sure but I think they can count capital over £60,000. A very nice lady at the CMS told me - just a tip - if you have more than that, put it in property then it's not counted. I didn't have that amount so it didn't matter. Outgoings like mortgage and rent don't count, but investing capital in a property means the capital isn't counted.

 

[Ash]

The reason I have titled this 'Maybe its me' is because I have done everything within my power to support my kids and ex but I feel constantly Hood winked by her and the system.
I am constantly tip toeing around her and her family just to have time with my kids.
I feel that no matter what I do it is a struggle which I am willing to endure for my kids sake but there must be a better more transparent way....

I hear you. I did the tiptoeing around and putting up with xxxx for 8 years then ended up in court out of necessity. For all it's hell doing all the tiptoeing around, it can be better than extreme hostility, affecting you and the kids.

A transparent way would be great - like doing normal things in a normal way and normal conversations. But it's all a competition to the parent who wants the money and the kids! All strategy and revenge and game playing. Don't play the game - the transparency is you being the straight honest one and your kids will see everything you do.

I do smell a rat though - you've moved nearer for overnights and she's trying to make it unaffordable for you. But if things are reasonably amicable, say you'd like to discuss the finances ongoing and draw up a family based arrangement and tell CMS what it is.

But the money grabbing is pretty sick isn't it. I was threatened for years - do this or I'll go to the CSA (as it was then) - the CSA was worse - just the name put the fear of God into people - including me. Then I phoned them and discussed my concerns and asked them to assess how much it would be if she went to them, and it was a lot less than I was paying. So the next time she threatened I said - fine do so but you will get less. She didn't threaten that again. It's just bullying.

 

[NCR]

Thanks Ash for your reply. My funds are in property and I sold one last year which has enabled me to rent locally to my children. She knows about all my finances as I have nothing to hide. I believe that this is about control. She knows how much my kids mean to me and uses this as leverage.

 

[NCR]

I hear you. I did the tiptoeing around and putting up with xxxx for 8 years then ended up in court out of necessity. For all it's hell doing all the tiptoeing around, it can be better than extreme hostility, affecting you and the kids.

A transparent way would be great - like doing normal things in a normal way and normal conversations. But it's all a competition to the parent who wants the money and the kids! All strategy and revenge and game playing. Don't play the game - the transparency is you being the straight honest one and your kids will see everything you do.

I do smell a rat though - you've moved nearer for overnights and she's trying to make it unaffordable for you. But if things are reasonably amicable, say you'd like to discuss the finances ongoing and draw up a family based arrangement and tell CMS what it is.

But the money grabbing is pretty sick isn't it. I was threatened for years - do this or I'll go to the CSA (as it was then) - the CSA was worse - just the name put the fear of God into people - including me. Then I phoned them and discussed my concerns and asked them to assess how much it would be if she went to them, and it was a lot less than I was paying. So the next time she threatened I said - fine do so but you will get less. She didn't threaten that again. It's just bullying.

I really appreciate your advice. So good to know its maybe not just me.

 

[Ash]

So your ex knows you sold a property to afford renting another property. So she's screwing you over that. Those funds will now be classed as assessable. I suggest you contact the CMS yourself and explain the situation. It might or might not help. Just tell them that straight - that because the only way you could see your children overnight was to rent a place near to them., you sold a property to fund this, and Mrs Ex is now saying she is asking you to investigate undisclosed funds. These funds are to provide accommodation for your children when they are with you. Tell them up front about the funds and ask if they are to be assessed for CM when you only released them via a property sale, to fund accommodation for your children to be able to stay with you. It does help having personal interaction with them, and whatever the outcome the person you're dealign with will see what's what. And tell them, if those funds are then used to increase CM you can't afford to provide accommodation for your children to see you.

Unfortunately they may just see it as "capital" and may be apologetic and say the rules say they have to assess capital - but then you are giving them all the information so they won't see you as a recalcitrant criminal trying to dodge the system - and they can actually be quite helpful (and I do believe that individual officers can "ignore" the odd thing. As I mentioned before, I had one give me some "tips" once when she could see my ex was witholding child threatening to go for more money and she heard my anxiety about it. I do believe that individual officers, have various remits to do things a certain way or make decisions.

So it is definitely worth ringing them yourself and asking to open a case for assessment yourself. They like that - it shows you're not trying to hide anything. Make it clear you have always paid the CM at the assessed rate, you are not trying to deprive your children of funds, but you are trying to be a parent and because your ex moved further away from you, you need to rent somewhere close to them so you can see them.

In fact one thing I suggest is saying this is your main home now. And you "commute" back to London for work. Because any property you own in London won't be counted. It may not make any difference as far as the assessment is concerned. But you might be lucky and get a good officer who finds a way round it and categorizes it a certain way.

But if not, then unfortunately this falls foul of the rules. All the while those funds were in property they wouldn't be counted,. Once that propertyu is sold it becomes "capital" and anything over £60,000 will be assessed and your ex get the CM increased probably. I say £60,000 - that's what it used to be about 10 years ago! It may have changed now - it might be a higher amount. But ask them about this, tell them the circumstances and they will give you the information and see what she is up to and "may" be helpful.

Unfortunately again, being upfront with your ex about finances is not always a good idea after separation - there is no longer the same "trust" there was in a marriage - you have different agendas. And it sounds like she is not that amicable if she is trying to screw you financially.

So you've told her you've sold a property to help fund accommodation nearer the kids so they can have overnights. That;s all the information she needs to try and prevent you achieving that. Sounds like she doesn't want them having overnights with you (she may say she's ok with it but actions speak louder than words).

The usual thing here is - they think way ahead of us - and they think - you might get a new partner, the kids might have a stepmum and another family and a second family home and they don;'t like it. Very common.

Is there any way you can quickly buy something else? Put an offer on a place, have it accepted and then say yes those funds have been released from a sold property but that's because you're in the process of moving and the funds are committed to another purchase which has been accepted but not gone through yet. I think that would be your best bet.

Put an offer on a flat near the kids. Which means of course you may need to go ahead and buy rather than rent. Is that affordable?

 

[NCR]

Hey Ash,
Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.

I cannot afford to buy using my finances from the sale and my salary. Most of the sale funds has gone on debts and renovations.
I was considering moving to the rented flat near my kids permanently, work permitting. I will then have to rent my flat in London out.
All I want is to see my kids grow up and without overnight stay it isn't the same thing. I need to put them to bed and check on them at night if they wake up and be the first face they see in the morning. The only way this is achievable is to rent close to them. I will then have them overnight much more.
I have always been honest and willing to help my ex in every way and she has used every opportunity to screw me over.
I refuse to be treated like this as all I am trying to do is be a dad to my kids. Why can't the system see this. Why is it so biased.
I would do anything to be in my kids lives consistently but I will not be extorted.

 

[Ash]

It's bureaucracy - a big faceless system like so many other Government systems. The rules are that capital can be assessed for CMS unfortunately and they won't allow outgoings like rental to reduce the assessment. If you did rent out the London flat that would also be assessed as additional income. Do you think she'd be reasonable if you discussed it with her? It does seem like she is more keen on preventing overnights by making it unaffordable for you - or just money grabbing!

The way it's worked out is it just adds up all income and capital - doesn't make any allowances at all for outgoings. The assessment can be reduced by travel costs or by the number of nights your children stay. I would be careful about what you tell her about finances from now on. At least if most of the capital has gone on debts and renovations, then there shouldn't be much extra to assess!

I would definitely phone them and tell them all that though - that you sold a property to pay off debts. Mrs Ex is claiming you have undisclosed finances and that is what she is referring to you. You have paid assessed child support religiously but needed to pay off some debts so sold this property and you are currently paying rent to live near your children and cannot afford higher child support. And would like it reassessing by the number of nights your children spend with you.

 

[Ash]

It is very unfair - especially when you're working hard and juggling all that. How much time has she agreed the children can stay over with you? If we had known about things earlier, you would probably have been advised to apply to court for a prohibited steps order, before your ex moved. They can't stop her moving but they can decide whether the children should be moved away or whether the ex has moved to frustrate time with you rather than for a genuine reason - and you'd have had a staying over order made at that time. Kent to London isn't that bad. How come you can't take them back to London with you for the week-end and in the holidays? You could be having them with you every other week-end and half the school holidays - but I know that;s not the same as seeing them more often.

 

[NCR]

Visits to London was the initial idea but in 2020 my son had Hydrocephalus and we nearly lost him. Since then he could not travel. He has been well for the last 6 months although Ex is still manipulating the situation and recently has tried to turn my 9 year old against me. There has no end of problems induced by Ex since we separated.
I have always been more than fair with her. She has a house in kent mortgage free and 30k cash and I have always paid an agreed amount to her regardless of the CM amount. I didn't work for ages when we split as I went through a breakdown and lost my job. I was instructed to pay £75pm and still.paid £600.
When I sold the property I gave her 2k in cash and put the same in my kids accounts but still she will not relent.

 

[Ash]

I'm really sorry to hear that. It sounds like you've had a really tough time. Have you kept records of all these payments you've given her? That might be helpful too. The one thing with CM is its always best to keep it formalised with a paper trail. Any standing orders, if not paid via the CMS - put a reference "Child Maintenance" on - or they can say it isn't child maintenance! And charge you again.

I understand the bind - it's like if you don't try and keep her happy she won't let you see the kids. But if you do try and keep her happy, she still won't let you see the kids and if you upset her she'd turn the kids against you. That is very common.

I'm guessing there are no court orders for Child Arrangements, is that right? I think I would seriously consider this if your daughter is 9 - once they get to 10 to 12 their "wishes and feelings" count for a lot more and your ex may coach her. Cafcass are supposed to spot coaching but they don't always.

How long have you been separated and how long since she moved? Regardless of the move she is supposed to support significant and regular time with the other parent. If your son can't travel then I can understand why you want to live nearer.

If applying for a child arrangements order then you can include your plans to live nearer and that way you could have midweek overnights as well as week-end and holiday time.

Has a divorce actually gone through and financials sorted? To protect yourself you need to keep all finances formalised now - you may need some yourself - not just for accommodation but for court fees as well.

Have you tried mediation with her at all?

 

[Ash]

And it's not you

 

[Ash]

Do you have a papertrail for the 2k you gave her and 2k in the kids accounts? That is something else you can tell the CMS - that although you acquired some capital from selling a property, it was mainly to pay bills and debts and you have already given her £4,000 of that capital. Get all your paperwork records together. And do call them - it's better than waiting for them to contact you assuming you are cheating her.

 

[NCR]

Thanks again Ash.

If I was to get through to her could she cancel the whole case and make some kind of legal agreement?

 

[NCR]

Yes, divorce if finalised. Around 1 year ago.

 

[Ash]

Thanks again Ash.

If I was to get through to her could she cancel the whole case and make some kind of legal agreement?

You can do a consent order which means you don't have to go to court. That is basically agreeing a schedule for Child Arrangements (ideally worded carefully so no loopholes). To do a consent order you would both need a solicitor to draw up what was agreed and when both solicitors approve the wording it's just sent to the court for sealing. It's just as legally binding as an order made by the court. However, it's the kind of thing that only usually works well when things are reasonably amicable and you're both agreed what's best for the kids. Otherwise you'd just run up big solicitors bills with wording being disagreed endlessly.

The other way is - you try mediation (you're expected to have mediation before applying to court anyway and it's a legal requirement to have attended at least the first mediation information session (MIAM). Anything agreed at mediation isn't legally binding though - it can be drawn up as a parenting agreement - but as it's just an agreement, either can just say - not agreed any more! And do something else. So again that only really works if both are amicable and agreed on what's best for the kids. A mediator can help improve things sometimes and help broker an agreement but it's the old thing of taking a horse to water .........

If you do have a parenting agreement though, and it isn't kept to, it can be helpful if you end up having to go to court as it proves what was agreed before, which helps.

Have a look at the parenting plan from the home page (I'll link it below). I think it's quite a good one. For a start of the way it's worded is that the children "live" with both parents. It has various categories to include things that some separated parents don't even think of - so it helps all to be prepared for any situation that might crop up. It has a section on finances so you can agree an amount for CM and what that includes. So you could have say, a slightly lower level of CM by agreement, with you also sharing the cost of school uniform and school trips, that kind of thing.

It can be edited to how you want if certain wording or categories don't fit the situation or you want to remove some things or add some things.

It's there because usually both parents are asked to submit a parenting plan to court before a first hearing (ironical when they both submit different ones! The idea being the Judge can see where both are coming from). I'm not even sure if that's still happening since Covid. I used it when I had to apply to court and found it quite a useful exercise to put everything down on paper as I'd like it to be. My ex's parenting plan was of course entirely different!

If you do manage to get some amicable discussion, you could lead on to suggesting drawing up a parenting plan that covers everything and see what she thinks.

My concern though for you is timing. It is very very common for a Dad to be cut out when a child gets to 11 or 12 and at secondary school. Mums see that as the age when they can say - child can choose for themselves. If there's already a court order in place before then, they can't get away with it so easily. Ex's tend to drag things out with mediation and discussion and then it's delay in getting a court order.

Parenting plans for separating parents

Parenting plan for single and separated Dads applying to court for shared parenting.

www.dadswithkids.co.uk