LIP for a Fact Finding

[Ash]

Try not to think ahead to all the "what ifs" it just gets you down and anxious. It really is a case of one step at a time. Getting a decent order is the first hurdle - there are ways you can handle things in future if that occurs. No one is going to say everything will be perfect or it will be an easy road, and yes my ex was also quite predictable, but I did have long periods of no hassle and sometimes a brief, well-worded email would keep her in her box. The main thing is that you see your child regularly and they see you as the non conflict parent.

 

[DadLad]

Try not to think ahead to all the "what ifs" it just gets you down and anxious. It really is a case of one step at a time. Getting a decent order is the first hurdle - there are ways you can handle things in future if that occurs. No one is going to say everything will be perfect or it will be an easy road, and yes my ex was also quite predictable, but I did have long periods of no hassle and sometimes a brief, well-worded email would keep her in her box. The main thing is that you see your child regularly and they see you as the non conflict parent.

I think it's because I can see this coming and I can predict her behaviour. You are right with concentrating on getting a good order first but I also keep myself prepared.

I have moments of doubt but overall I'm positive and consistent. I am doing my very best with everything and doing what has been asked of me by the courts.

 

[Ash]

Which is why you ask for a clearly defined order, so there are no loopholes she can manipulate (although don't actually say that to the court! Just say a clearly defined order to avoid disagreements) and possibly even take a draft order with you. Or a template for a draft order, set out with all the order wording you want. Your ex's solicitor will be responsible for drawing up any order that's made at the hearing, which is a disadvantage, so taking a draft order with you might help. Then whatever the outcome you can say - can we agree this draft order wording with the dates/times amended (depending what's ordered) please, so there is no ambiguity in order wording.

 

[DadLad]

Which is why you ask for a clearly defined order, so there are no loopholes she can manipulate (although don't actually say that to the court! Just say a clearly defined order to avoid disagreements) and possibly even take a draft order with you. Or a template for a draft order, set out with all the order wording you want. Your ex's solicitor will be responsible for drawing up any order that's made at the hearing, which is a disadvantage, so taking a draft order with you might help. Then whatever the outcome you can say - can we agree this draft order wording with the dates/times amended (depending what's ordered) please, so there is no ambiguity in order wording.

I'm going to ask for the wording of the order to be agreed at the hearing.

 

[Richie1989]

Why are LIP treated so badly? is there some sort of exclusive legal club and anyone outside of that is looked down at as a hindrance?

To offer some positivity on LIP scenarios. My friend had to take his ex to court. Usually nonsense! False allegations blah blah blah. To start with he had solicitor and barrister for every hearing. Sadly he had 10 dispute hearings due to his ex being persistent on dragging things out as long as possible. Yes she was awarded legal aid. License to print money for the solicitors a voice says in my head. He eventually had to remortgage his house to keep up with payments but again this money dried up over time so he decided to go LIP. This gave him the conviction/opportunity to push for reciprocated testing and eventually the judge agreed = massive turning point! From not being able to see his child only on a supervised basis, he now has full custody. He doesn’t want that for his son but until the ex passes a nail or hair test for drugs and alcohol he won’t budge, genuine safeguarding concerns. This was 2 years ago now and still his ex doesn’t have any overnights. Keeps failing the tests!! I’m not poking at his ex I find it really sad. Like my friend said to me “imagine not being able to read a bed time story to your child for 2 years!”. He wants to have 50/50 but sadly she keeps failing the tests. Anyway, my point is LIP was ok for him. I’m sure it has its drawbacks but I personally think it’s the manner in which you approach it. Mudslinging will go down like a shit sawny! So just make sure you read loads of case studies. What to do and not what to do and be the best version of yourself. If there is no money to have a barrister then go smash it. Smash it in the right way though! Yes it comes with risk unless you have thorough knowledge of family law and procedures but hey the Internet is a wonderful thing and the library has some great resources. Talk to as many people as possible who can share their experiences. Use of language will be key, patterns of language/jargon and no emotion. That’s probably a huge difference, barristers won’t be emotive that I can imagine is extremely tricky. I never did it though so can only theorise. Anyway, hope this helps

 

[Ash]

Always the great motivating voice of positivity Richie - thanks for that. And you're right - it's about self belief and a lot of reading and research.

 

[DadLad]

Apologies for another question, I'm trying to get everything prepared in advance.

The judge presumed that I would have representation for this hearing which I don't.

As there are allegations of DA and under the DA act we aren't permitted to cross-examine.

Would it be wise to email the court asking to either have a QLR appointed for the purpose of cross-examining the respondent or alternatively ask if I can submit my questions to the judge in preparation for cross-examining the respondent?

Or just turn up on the day with my questions and play oblivious being LIP?

 

[Ash]

It could be worth emailing the court to confirm you aren’t being represented due to lack of funds for a 4 day hearing and as such may not be able to cross examine if DA allegations prevent this so you would like to give the Judge questions to ask on your behalf and ask if they will confirm either that this acceptable or that you will be able to cross examine.

 

[Resolute]

Apologies for another question, I'm trying to get everything prepared in advance.

The judge presumed that I would have representation for this hearing which I don't.

As there are allegations of DA and under the DA act we aren't permitted to cross-examine.

Would it be wise to email the court asking to either have a QLR appointed for the purpose of cross-examining the respondent or alternatively ask if I can submit my questions to the judge in preparation for cross-examining the respondent?

Or just turn up on the day with my questions and play oblivious being LIP?

I'm not sure about the not permitted to cross-examine idea. I had allegations against me and my final hearing was a type of composite Child Arrangement and Family Law Act hearing. It was not assumed that I could cross examine my ex. But, I did cross examine her as she was willing to go through that process. All around me at the time thought it vanishingly unlikely that there would be cross-examination as LIP. They were wrong on this 1 occasion.

 

[Ash]

I'm not sure either, unless it's a new thing since the DA Act?

 

[DadLad]

I'm just reading this now. The other party could prevent certain questions being asked on my behalf. - this could be a huge setback.

But the criteria for banning direct cross-examination does not apply to me. The only thing would be that the other party plays that she wouldn't be able to give her best evidence if she is directly cross-examined by me.

https://www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/cross-examination-1.pdf

 

[DadLad]

Does anyone have any useful resources or advice on how to prepare for a fact finding hearing?

I think doing both a ff and a final hearing across 4 days is going to take a lot of preparation and could become overwhelming if not.

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

Here are two good websites that may help.

What to expect at a Fact Finding Hearing in child arrangements — A Father's Friend®

Introduction Fact Finding Hearings are used by the courts to help the judge decide whether allegations made by a party are true or not in family law cases. The different types of allegations can include physical abuse, sexual abuse, financial abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, racial ab

www.afathersfriend.co.uk

A junior practitioner’s brief guide to private law fact-finding hearings - Becket Chambers

In this article Magdalena Cass discusses fact finding hearings sets out a basic guide to preparing for and executing fact-finding hearings

becket-chambers.co.uk

 

[DadLad]

Here are two good websites that may help.

What to expect at a Fact Finding Hearing in child arrangements — A Father's Friend®

Introduction Fact Finding Hearings are used by the courts to help the judge decide whether allegations made by a party are true or not in family law cases. The different types of allegations can include physical abuse, sexual abuse, financial abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, racial ab

www.afathersfriend.co.uk

A junior practitioner’s brief guide to private law fact-finding hearings - Becket Chambers

In this article Magdalena Cass discusses fact finding hearings sets out a basic guide to preparing for and executing fact-finding hearings

becket-chambers.co.uk

Thank you @Nanaforsonsjustice you have been helpful throughout this post. Much appreciated

 

[DadLad]

@Nanaforsonsjustice

When you responded to the scott schedule, how detailed did you go with your responses?

Did you also submit additional exhibits to support your responses?

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

@Nanaforsonsjustice

When you responded to the scott schedule, how detailed did you go with your responses?

Did you also submit additional exhibits to support your responses?

When responding to the Scott schedule in the box provided, we put whether accepted or denied, they were mostly denied, and then gave a short summary of why denied. For instance if the event didn’t happen or there was evidence to show it didn’t happen that was included int he summary.

Yes additional exhibits were submitted to support the response, but be mindful that if there is no evidence just to simply say “Denied, this did not happen” because then it is for the Respondent to prove that the allegation made is true.

Below is a couple of examples of the responses.

Partial admission, in that I did slap the Respondents shin however this was in self-defence. I deny causing any other injuries to the Respondent.
See counter schedule and Applicants statement dated xx/xx/2024. Paragraph 22.
Exhibit xx/06 and xx/10
Applicants statement dated xx/xx/2024
Paragraphs 16 and 22 - 28.


Denied, the Applicant has never shouted at the child xxxx or caused emotional distress to him.
See Applicants statement dated xx/xx/2024 Paragraphs 43 to 46.

 

[DadLad]

During a FF what carries the most weight?

Will documents and evidence filed beforehand make a significant impact for the hearing?

Does the cross-examining of witnesses and exposing the witness credibility give you the upper hand?

How do I cover ground most effectively?

I'm trying to get everything into place, and ensuring that I have everything covered. I believe that the ex's solicitor will try every trick in the book to try and undermine me.

 

[DadLad]

To offer some positivity on LIP scenarios. My friend had to take his ex to court. Usually nonsense! False allegations blah blah blah. To start with he had solicitor and barrister for every hearing. Sadly he had 10 dispute hearings due to his ex being persistent on dragging things out as long as possible. Yes she was awarded legal aid. License to print money for the solicitors a voice says in my head. He eventually had to remortgage his house to keep up with payments but again this money dried up over time so he decided to go LIP. This gave him the conviction/opportunity to push for reciprocated testing and eventually the judge agreed = massive turning point! From not being able to see his child only on a supervised basis, he now has full custody. He doesn’t want that for his son but until the ex passes a nail or hair test for drugs and alcohol he won’t budge, genuine safeguarding concerns. This was 2 years ago now and still his ex doesn’t have any overnights. Keeps failing the tests!! I’m not poking at his ex I find it really sad. Like my friend said to me “imagine not being able to read a bed time story to your child for 2 years!”. He wants to have 50/50 but sadly she keeps failing the tests. Anyway, my point is LIP was ok for him. I’m sure it has its drawbacks but I personally think it’s the manner in which you approach it. Mudslinging will go down like a shit sawny! So just make sure you read loads of case studies. What to do and not what to do and be the best version of yourself. If there is no money to have a barrister then go smash it. Smash it in the right way though! Yes it comes with risk unless you have thorough knowledge of family law and procedures but hey the Internet is a wonderful thing and the library has some great resources. Talk to as many people as possible who can share their experiences. Use of language will be key, patterns of language/jargon and no emotion. That’s probably a huge difference, barristers won’t be emotive that I can imagine is extremely tricky. I never did it though so can only theorise. Anyway, hope this helps

Forgive me for not understanding the terms but what does 'reciprocated testing' mean?

 

[Ash]

I haven't had a fact find, but from what I've read and heard, cross examination seems perhaps the most important (although evidence is obviously important as well) as cross examination can show the Mother up, prove she's lying (by what she says and her reactions in court) and possibly even make her lose her cool and look bad. I've heard of some cases where the Judge has found for the Mother because she sounded believable.

A barrister can be quite brutal with cross examination, but as the other parent, you also need to be conscious of how you yourself come across, so a more calm, subtle, low key form of cross examination might be better, with carefully worded questions and picking her up - in the hope she gets rattled.

I believe a statement/oral submissions are important as well. It's a big task to do all of it yourself but I'm sure you'll do a good job.

 

[Ash]

When I say calm and low key I mean the questions themselves and the words used could still rattle her, while you're not coming across as aggressive. You could still say something like - now you know that's not true don't you because you said xyz earlier and it's here in black and white on this document. Without actually sounding aggressive. If that makes sense.