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Lack of clarity on Court Order

M

mva

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Hi I need some advice .

The final Court order states that my contact with my sons is suppose to move from being supported by a third party to my parents if the children have no concerns or objections. My ex is claiming that the boys are not happy with this change. I dont think my sons have any real issues with this proposed change but even If I get their real feelings out of them my ex wont believe me anyway and I i dont want to put my kids under pressure.

Supervised contact has been going on 3 years I cant afford it any more and tbh I just had enough of being observed with my own kids.

What legally can I do about clarifying the boys real wishes and feelings.
 
if the children have no concerns or objections. My ex is claiming that the boys are not happy with this change.
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Yes she would say that wouldn't she?! I think the only thing you can do is a bit of leverage in writing. More wishes and feelings does put kids under pressure. It's a shame you have that loophole line in the order as it's bound to be manipulated.

So what on earth objection could anyone have to your parents?!

I'd suggest starting with a message to the ex and you may need to follow up with an application for directions

"Hi. The Child Arrangements order of x date, specifies that my time with the children will move to being supervised by my parents on x date. The childrens relationship with me is fine. Please confirm you agree that time with myself and my parents will commence on x date. If the boys wish to discuss anything with me about the changes, they can discuss with me when they see me".

That's the line I used to use if my ex said my son didn't want something. I'd just say "he can discuss that with me when he sees me". In other words - not having that bull shxt!

She will probably reply - but the court order says only if the children have no concerns or objections and they do.

You could then try a bit more dialogue like - I don't feel the boys are in a position to express their feelings on this matter when a) it's a situation they're not familiar with and b) it's clear you are not keen on the idea and they will want to please you. Please confirm that you agree that the time with me will be with my parents on x date".

If you still get a no and a load of blather back, then I would make an application to get that bit of the order amended, citing that it is being abused and the order wording needs amending to protect the children from being caught in the middle of parental disagreement.

It would need to be an application to vary the order unfortunately. And you'd need to have tried mediation first or at least have a MIAM.

If you are applying to vary, is it worth asking for unsupervised to be introduced gradually as well? Why was the final order supervised only?
 
yep my parents are both dbs checked retired teachers with 7 other grandsons , so not really a threat.

I have asked ex via OFW to clarify why the boys object and she just says they are not happy about it.

The final order says supervised only as im deemed a domestic abuser via LIP fact finding and historic mental health. Prior to this boys
lived with me three days a week.

Theres a non mol in place so only supposed to have contact via OFW.

To Vary I need a maim ? what form is it to vary. I like your email idea will give it a go.
Thanks
 
Is the non mol permanent or does it expire? To vary it's the same C100 form. You just put in the box "Application to vary Child Arrangements order". You attach the existing order to the form and tick the box where it asks if there are any existing orders.

Yes if you word some things right it puts them on the spot a bit and it can be good evidence for you later. Assume you can print out these OFW messages?

Sounds like your ex doesn't want your boys having any involvement with the paternal side of the family and just keep to the minimum she has to - contact centre time.

Assume it was Cafcass suggested putting in "if they don't have any objections or concerns". It's a stupid line anyway - how can they if they haven't even tried it. They will of course probably repeat what the ex wants unfortunately.

How old are they?
 
I have asked ex via OFW to clarify why the boys object and she just says they are not happy about it.
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You need to be careful with the communication or you fall into her trap and it enables her to continue to manipulate your boys.

So by asking why the boys object you are basically saying you believe they do. And that means they are in the unenviable situation of Dad believing they said something when they didn't.

Sometimes it's necessary to turn it around a bit and maybe say "What possible objection could they have to spending time with retired teacher grandparents with a DBS? They need to be encouraged that it's ok."

Anyway as it's a tricky area, it can help to run communications by us on here for tips. They could be helpful to you if worded right - and they could catch her out or put her on the spot.

The other thing is to add a kind of friendly aspect as if it's all very normal. Like - my Dad is interested in doing xyz with them when he sees them and it'll be good for them to know their grandparents as well as me. I believe it's your responsibility to encourage them into the arrangements made."

Problem is with that line in the order it does give her a get out clause.

If the non mol expires in Nov I don't suppose it makes much difference. You might as well carry on with OFW as it avoids issues. But it's something lifted, which helps.

I think you could argue it's in the childrens best interests not to be in a contact centre all the time and have some normality.
 
Boys are 9&10.

The contact has already moved to my parents home fortnightly, where I currently live, but supported by a nanny at £210 for 7 hrs This was the caffcass recommendation.

The boys have already had wishes and feels assessed, in an amended reported, requested by mother , this reduced contact from weekly to fortnightly.

I genuinely don’t know what my boys actual wishes are.

I fear that any variation requested for unsupervised normal contact will just lead the caffcass officer to side with the ex again. The ex claims she is fearful of me, doesn’t trust my Mental Health and will never facilitate handovers etc

I can’t see how this situation can go on till boys are 16. I have done the recommended therapy , refused to do a DAPP originally but would now to hoop jump but course isn’t accepting people.
 
Thanks for your help. I will send one more OFW then look at varying. I’m mindful of not dictating or looking controlling in any way. Will send a draft to this forum tomorrow for your comments.

Ash many thanks
 
I genuinely don’t know what my boys actual wishes are.
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That's because they can't have any actual wishes and feelings - they won't know themselves what they are. It's only "ascertainable" wishes and feelings any way - not "expressed" wishes and feelings.

That's really bad it got reduced from weekly to fortnightly. Ok so if the time is already at your parents house, then the only change is to stop the Nanny? I think that's worth an application to vary. It shouldn't affect your ex at all. How are the pickups and dropoffs being facilitated? The nanny? Or your parents?

I am surprised the boys wishes and feelings dictated so much anyway at that age, but if you're going to get something changed, now is the time to do it before they get any older.

I am sorry you lost the fact find. It happens a lot. It's all based on the balance of probabilities and can go badly wrong.

No there are no DAPP courses now but there are the "Temper" courses (not a great title I know) and it would show willingness maybe if you could say you have completed a course and perhaps help the case.

You could propose a week-end fortnightly, with the Nanny being phased out over a period of 3 months maybe. And offer an undertaking to continue using OFW when the non mol expires.

Google temper courses. They are running some. It doesn't necessarily mean an admission of guilt. You can say you wished to show you have made efforts to comply with court requirements and to learn more about dv and the effect it can have upon people and you simply wish to have a more normal relationship with the children, supervised by your parents if necessary.
 
Drop off and pick up are currently via the nanny.

The court order says even if contact moves to supported by my parents then a nanny will still pick up and drop off waiting 10 mins at the begining of contact to make sure boys are "comfortable". I cant see any nanny being interested in doing this time wise anyway ( waiting 7 hours in a car or going home and back) , and for a nanny to come into my parents home to check that all three of us are looking unthreatening ( my dads 75) for ten minutes is ridiculous. The court order simply isnt logical .
 
That sounds tough. So not that long since the order was made. About 7 months. Has there been any involvement with Cafcass or social services since the order was made?

I don't see why your parents shouldn't do collections and drop offs. The ex probably won't agree because she will prefer someone neutral no doubt.
 
No caffcass / social services involvement since court order.

Ex doesn’t want my parents near her house
 
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