So, my daughter picked my youngest daughter up from school yesterday while I was at court, she asked to see her younger brother as the mother has kept him from us for over a month now, she seen him 2 weeks ago in the same situation and he was over joyed to see her saying he wanted to come for sleepovers and he loved and missed us all, the ex has always said he didn't want to see us but we knew he did, yesterday though he wasn't the same as last time and he was really sad, she asked him what he'd been doing and he said they'd been given a picture of a heart and were meant to draw people around it who loved him, she asked who he drew and he said no one as nobody loves him!! She told him everyone loves him but he said no they don't and he was going to draw his cat and his dog as he gets cuddles from them, I was heart broken!! Today I go to school to find that his mother has been in this morning and told school not to let my family see him anymore as he was upset all night and kept telling her he missed us. I have our youngest daughter living with me at the minute as she doesn't want to see her mother, she's very abusive and drinks a lot almost daily, she also does a lot of drugs but the kids don't know about that. She's been telling him things like I'm stopping her taking him on holiday and she's also been asking him to ask his sister why she doesn't want to see her. He's turning into a very unhappy little boy which he never was before and I'm sure she's telling him a lot of lies about me, there isn't an actual court order yet as we're early doors at court but I do have PR. Is this something the court will do something about? She's due to take him on holiday next week without me or his sister there to look after him, holiday was booked pre separation and I'm really worried about his safety especially when she drinks a lot he'll be left to his own devices, school offered me to go early tomorrow and spend the last half hour with him which I will do, teachers know all about the ex and have called ss twice now but they don't do anything. Do I just take him tomorrow? How will the court see that? Please help
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Is this alienation
- Thread starter SJP
- Start date
I think it's just the current situation. And not quite alienation. If it was alienation your son would be very hostile towards anyone from your side who approached him. And telling people he hated you. It's nasty stuff. I believe you have an interim order to see him now don't you?
I wasn't sure if it was actually in an order yet but just spoke to my barrister and he has said that because she offered Friday then I should email her and say something like as you offered Friday then I'll be picking him up from school today but I should also ask I'd I can have more time as she wants him back by 12 tomorrow, and he's going away on Sunday with her, just thinking about how to word it
Blimey that was hurtful to read!!
Sorry for all of you!What drives people to be so cruel is something I don't think I will ever understand. As a society we fail on so many fronts. But that's a separate story.
What I do know is that the temptation for you to fight fire with fire will be overwhelming because of this experience and it's important that you pause here for a second and remind yourself that you are not that person.
You need to tread carefully regarding the Parental Alienation allegation. But you shouldn't need to make it at all if the courts are switched on. She will dig her own hole so let her carry on. It's important you don't focus your court struggle on her behaviour or shortcomings. She may use your criticisms against you!
The truth will come out in the end. Keep focused on the children.
If you're struggling to word this email asking for confirmation and more time maybe we can help you by peer reviewing what you're thinking of sending.
Yeah it's a tough time, my little boy is so sad at the minutecand is longing to be with us. As I thought she has said that she won't let contact start again today after offering me Friday night contactcat court on Wednesday, she is saying that until she see a court order saying he is to be returned on Saturdays then contact will have to wait, she is taking him on holiday on Sunday so what's she says would mean waiting another 2 weeks to see him which isn't good for him. I have asked her to reconsider and check with her legal team to confirm this is OK but I know she will stop me seeing him today. You have no idea how close I am to taking him anyway but I know I cantBlimey that was hurtful to read!!
What drives people to be so cruel is something I don't think I will ever understand. As a society we fail on so many fronts. But that's a separate story.
What I do know is that the temptation for you to fight fire with fire will be overwhelming because of this experience and it's important that you pause here for a second and remind yourself that you are not that person.
You need to tread carefully regarding the Parental Alienation allegation. But you shouldn't need to make it at all if the courts are switched on. She will dig her own hole so let her carry on. It's important you don't focus your court struggle on her behaviour or shortcomings. She may use your criticisms against you!
The truth will come out in the end. Keep focused on the children.
If you're struggling to word this email asking for confirmation and more time maybe we can help you by peer reviewing what you're thinking of sending.
Sounds like she's contradicting herself which is not uncommon and something we are both experiencing in our respective cases so I have long ceased to take her word for anything. The court order is the final say. And that is my only focus.
Something that I have to constantly keep reminding myself of when I am getting myself down thinking about my boy is that children are actually very resilient. Their emotions process at a much more rapid pace than us adults. One minute they're crying because they can't have their way (that chocolate in the fridge) and try it on with us parents until they realise it's not going to work and then, BAM, they're back to playing and being happy again and have forgotten all about what they were upset about.
They also have a very different concept of time than us adults. Life moves fast when you're a kid. Whereas we tend to dwell on every second. The two weeks will feel like an eternity for you but it will pass in the blink of an eye for your boy. What it comes down to really is we overthink and we get ourselves down thinking the worst. I think all you can do is grin and bare it for now and try to focus your thoughts away from what worries you and into your court business.
How far away is your next hearing? Is there no interim order granting you any time with at present?
Something that I have to constantly keep reminding myself of when I am getting myself down thinking about my boy is that children are actually very resilient. Their emotions process at a much more rapid pace than us adults. One minute they're crying because they can't have their way (that chocolate in the fridge) and try it on with us parents until they realise it's not going to work and then, BAM, they're back to playing and being happy again and have forgotten all about what they were upset about.
They also have a very different concept of time than us adults. Life moves fast when you're a kid. Whereas we tend to dwell on every second. The two weeks will feel like an eternity for you but it will pass in the blink of an eye for your boy. What it comes down to really is we overthink and we get ourselves down thinking the worst. I think all you can do is grin and bare it for now and try to focus your thoughts away from what worries you and into your court business.
How far away is your next hearing? Is there no interim order granting you any time with at present?
The contact was agreed in principle but no order made as yet, my barrister advised me that I should make direct contact with her confirming I would pick my boy up today as I thought was agreed, she said no and that contact would be arranged after the holiday, I've now had an email fromvher solicitor to minecsaying I should not be contacting her direct as she's not comfortable with that and under no circumstances will she hrant contact before the holiday, I'm one broken dad today
I broken for you!
You should most definitely disregard the thoughts of taking him. You know what the consequences of this will be. As it stands you're conduct is gold. Don't tarnish that.
Being told one thing only to have it taken away from you is disgraceful. This is time with your child. It's not insignificant. Maybe something to learn here would be to get anything "in principle" in writing. If possible. I can't see this being viewed too favourably by the court if it is mentioned at any future hearings. But like I said, she is doing a good job of painting herself in a bad light. You just keep doing the right thing.
Have you considered asking your solicitor to contact hers to remind them of the agreement?
If this doesn't appear to be a situation you can change in the immediate cycle of events then you need to stop and think of your own well-being as well here. If you can't change something there's only so much time you should allow yourself to fret over it. I know it's not easy. But it's definitely better to concern yourself with things you can influence. Like getting your case in order.
Hopefully the time you have to wait until he returns goes quickly for you. The six months since I last saw my son in person have gone quickly. I haven't got long until my first contact centre session. Focusing on that moment keeps me focused. Hopefully focusing on your sons return will offer you some too.
Talking to us on hear is available 24/7. All of us Dads With Kids aren't going anywhere. We support each other by talking.
You should most definitely disregard the thoughts of taking him. You know what the consequences of this will be. As it stands you're conduct is gold. Don't tarnish that.
Being told one thing only to have it taken away from you is disgraceful. This is time with your child. It's not insignificant. Maybe something to learn here would be to get anything "in principle" in writing. If possible. I can't see this being viewed too favourably by the court if it is mentioned at any future hearings. But like I said, she is doing a good job of painting herself in a bad light. You just keep doing the right thing.
Have you considered asking your solicitor to contact hers to remind them of the agreement?
If this doesn't appear to be a situation you can change in the immediate cycle of events then you need to stop and think of your own well-being as well here. If you can't change something there's only so much time you should allow yourself to fret over it. I know it's not easy. But it's definitely better to concern yourself with things you can influence. Like getting your case in order.
Hopefully the time you have to wait until he returns goes quickly for you. The six months since I last saw my son in person have gone quickly. I haven't got long until my first contact centre session. Focusing on that moment keeps me focused. Hopefully focusing on your sons return will offer you some too.
Talking to us on hear is available 24/7. All of us Dads With Kids aren't going anywhere. We support each other by talking.
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Great points Kyle. Something else I find useful to keep in mind is that kids are much more perceptive than they appear. They sense if one of the parents actions do not add up and work out where to place their trust. Perhaps this is why lots parents who get live with orders by lying, fight to keep them as babies for as long as possible - I need to breastfeed my 2 year old, put nappies on my 7 year old, get my 9 year old in bed by 7 o'clock.
Just to keep this in context and following on from your other thread. Your daughter is living with you and your son living with your ex. And the court hearing apparently thrashed out agreement for your son to see you from Friday to Saturday weekly. But supervised only for your daugher with ex - is that right? It seems that agreement is just that - even if thrashed out between lawyers - and not actually an interim order.
All I'd say right now is you need to tread really carefully with the wording of any correspondence. It sounded like, initially, your ex agreed to 12 noon on Saturday - but has now said - no not doing it. It could be you annoyed her by something you said. It's really important to keep all communications formal and Biff (Brief, Informative, Friendly and formal) - it is so tempting to say what we really think, point score etc and be provocative because we're frustrated. But that just makes things worse. We really do need someone else to look over our emails in these situations! And see it with an outside eye.
Not saying that's what happened.
But I would just reply to her solicitor:
"As per the interim arrangements agreed at court, my son is due to be with me from School on Friday until 12 noon on Sunday. Please confirm that he will be made available to collect from school on Friday. And I confirm I will return him 12 noon Saturday".
I'd also contact your barrister and tell them they're refusing to follow the agreement. And get the barrister to contact her solicitor.
You know what? Because you asked for extra time than was agreed they probably think you will keep him and don't trust you to return him 12 noon on Saturday. So they've cancelled the whole thing thinking you'll withold him and not let him go on the holiday and not return him.
All I'd say right now is you need to tread really carefully with the wording of any correspondence. It sounded like, initially, your ex agreed to 12 noon on Saturday - but has now said - no not doing it. It could be you annoyed her by something you said. It's really important to keep all communications formal and Biff (Brief, Informative, Friendly and formal) - it is so tempting to say what we really think, point score etc and be provocative because we're frustrated. But that just makes things worse. We really do need someone else to look over our emails in these situations! And see it with an outside eye.
Not saying that's what happened.
But I would just reply to her solicitor:
"As per the interim arrangements agreed at court, my son is due to be with me from School on Friday until 12 noon on Sunday. Please confirm that he will be made available to collect from school on Friday. And I confirm I will return him 12 noon Saturday".
I'd also contact your barrister and tell them they're refusing to follow the agreement. And get the barrister to contact her solicitor.
You know what? Because you asked for extra time than was agreed they probably think you will keep him and don't trust you to return him 12 noon on Saturday. So they've cancelled the whole thing thinking you'll withold him and not let him go on the holiday and not return him.
Once you're in the court scenario you need to follow arrangements to the letter. It was a compromise that was thrashed out - for now. So both kids could see both parents. It's much less informal than before at the moment. So asking for extra time was bound to get a no - because then she could ask for extra time too! So the compromise agreement then becomes a bit worthless if there are still arguments about how much time.
Just trying to warn you to be careful during the court process or they could be accusing you of attempted alienation.
Just trying to warn you to be careful during the court process or they could be accusing you of attempted alienation.
To be fair, I didn't hear her full proposal, I was told she wanted 3 hours a week but I wasn't told a specific day, but in the draft it says from 12 on Saturday when I drop jake off, I thought my contact from Friday was me collecting jake from school, the draft is saying from 6.30, obviously so I have to go over there to pick ava up then go back again at 6.30 then back again at 12 on Saturday then back again at 3 on Saturday to collect ava. I didn't agree any of this
Just go with it for now - it's an interim order. Yes your initial email was fine - but then it ended up you and ex having a polite argument. Better to keep it formal and via her solicitor for now.
So just follow what's on the paperwork for now. Pick your son up at 6.30 and take him back at 12 noon along with your daughter then go back to pick your daughter up at 3pm. Or - accept that your ex is not going to do it until after the holiday - which might actually be better if you're worried she might keep your daughter and take her on holiday ......................... Then it will be ex who has breached the interim order.
Who drafted the interim arrangements wording? Her Solicitor? This happens a lot - what's agreed at court is one thing and what comes on the paperwork turns out to be something else! Why pick him up at 6.30 and risk confrontation at ex's house when it could be direct from school?! I think they've changed it.
I think you need to speak to your Barrister to confirm what was agreed - they tend to work late - might still be there now.
So just follow what's on the paperwork for now. Pick your son up at 6.30 and take him back at 12 noon along with your daughter then go back to pick your daughter up at 3pm. Or - accept that your ex is not going to do it until after the holiday - which might actually be better if you're worried she might keep your daughter and take her on holiday ......................... Then it will be ex who has breached the interim order.
Who drafted the interim arrangements wording? Her Solicitor? This happens a lot - what's agreed at court is one thing and what comes on the paperwork turns out to be something else! Why pick him up at 6.30 and risk confrontation at ex's house when it could be direct from school?! I think they've changed it.
I think you need to speak to your Barrister to confirm what was agreed - they tend to work late - might still be there now.
I was never given any times or dates she was proposing, it's only cam out
Came out in the draft, exactly why 6.30? So she still has the power mate that's what she's like she'll make everything as hard as possible I've no doubt she will expect me to do all the drop offs and pickups, is a draft final or can it be adjusted?
Thank you, its great to have somewhere like this to let it out
Thats what I was told today as there was no draft at the time even though there is now, it's too late to contact solicitors now and I've been told not to contact her direct, but now daughter is wanting to go with her on the holiday, I'm lost as to what to do now, I letvher go then she says it proves she's not scared to go with her, I don't let her go and I'm the bad guy,
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