How old are/were you when you were doing this nonsense?

[PoorMe]

Hello. First post. Looks like I'm about to do all this crap. The ex has finally gone and done it - she's (well, her mum on the actual day) has stopped me from getting our eleven year son after school for our usual Thursday evening (I return him that night to his mum), and then also Friday, and now refuses to communicate. This is significant because her mother, who is normally the slightly more sensible one who doesn't argue (much), appears to be agreeing that she should kick this off.

We've been split up for 10 years. Both single. All we do is scream at each other over text messages. I haven't been in the same room with her for years. The trigger for this episode is - 6 months ago she gave her old iPhone to our kid, but, incredibly, didn't wipe it. I got my lad to unlock it so I could add my phone number to it so we could Whatsapp only to find it was already on there, with all of our awful message history, but worse - also full of her other text messages etc., some of which were to blokes she's obviously met on the internet, discussing sex acts. Some drunken sounding argument with a woman I don't know. You couldn't make it up. And I only looked at it for like 3 minutes, saw enough. I asked her to wipe it. She refused, astonishingly, didn't think it was a problem. I kept asking her for six months to do it, she refused the whole time. So last week I finally decided to just do it myself. Our lad takes this phone to school ffs. And now she and her mum are on the "this is the final straw, you can't see your son any more, you controlling b**stard". As if any of that makes sense. Door slammed in my face, total refusal to communicate. Seems unlikely to change.

I sent a registered post letter that was delivered this morning saying we have to go to mediation and requested contact with our son resume. I don't expect mediation to work.

I guess I digress from the thread title. I'm knocking on 52 years old, she's in her mid-forties. I've got more grey in my beard than dark. I want to grab hold of her and shake her and say "Don't you think we're a bit long in the tooth for this shit?"

She drinks. She's unhinged. She'll do all the usual crap if we go to court that I see you lot all saying your exes do. Abuse, controlling. He smokes dope (I don't any more). I'll be doing self rep. I'm tired. Jesus Christ.

 

[Ash]

Hi - I wasn't that young either and my ex 10 years younger but with the mind of a teenager (tantrums and behaviour). I think there's more to it than the phone, as your son is 11 and that's the age ex's start saying - he can have his own wishes etc.

Do you have any court orders in place?

 

[PoorMe]

No, nothing. There's a lot more to it than the phone. I have two nights out of fourteen, Fri and Sat, take back Sun afternoon, plus two evenings, Thurs and Fri on the off week, take back 8:30pm. This arrangement comes from me having to go live 150 miles away for 3.5 years (financial reasons following breakup). She works Thurs and Fri night, so when I came back she agreed that I'd have him then so I could cover. But since her mum stopped work, she's repeatedly said she "doesn't need me to do that any more" as her mum can do it, like I'm just the hired help, lmao, and demanded she has him those nights again. I've total refused that, as it would reduce me to almost nothing. Not a chance. And now she's decided to just do it.

I have a good relationship with my kid. I take him out and do all kinds of stuff with him. He's going to be denied all that now. She does nothing with him. Virtually illiterate and a drunk. Once knowingly dated a convicted paedophile for 2 years. Was into teenage girls, not boys, so in her mind it was all right. Until they went to try and go on holiday abroad, where she found out he was supposed to declare relationships with children and stuff, and the police had come down on him like a ton of bricks. Social worker chat with my son. That was the end of that.

She doesn't abuse my son or anything like that, she looks after him. She just spends her whole life making these astonishingly bad decisions. And her mum, no being terribly bright either, is just an apologist for her.

 

[Ash]

When she said you can't see your son any more - do you have that in writing? In a text or email? In hindsight I would probably have got him a phone of his own and set it up with age appropriate controls and said she can have hers back. But she probably wouldn't have liked that either.

You can't change who his Mother is and I'm sure he can see what's what. Do you think there's any chance of talking her round after letting the dust settle? If not you could apply for a Child arrangements order, but at his age, they would take his wishes seriously and she might bully him into saying he doesn't want to see you. So if you can sort it out by talking her round it might be better. In two or three years time he can vote with his feet.

 

[PoorMe]

She wouldn't have liked that either, no. What would he do, have two phones, one while he's round mine? And one with a load of that stuff on it? Nah.

As for talking her round, maybe. I think we should do the mediation so it at least shows I'm serious - and it might be the only way I can actually talks to her - if she shows up for a joint session. This coming weekend is supposed to be my weekend, so if she's going to stop at just cutting out the Thursday, we'll find out then.

I hear what you say about getting him to say stuff - and he's 12 in a month or so, which I believe is significant, legally. Likely influenced her current decision. Another fun aspect is, my 85 year old mum, who she openly slags off, has just been diagnosed with bone cancer, and won't have long. I sent the ex a text telling her that yesterday. She's read it (Whatsapp), but still not replying. Will likely finish my mum off 'cos he's her only grandson.

 

[Ash]

Don't tell your Mum yet and avoid resorting to angry messages or guilt tripping if you can. Keep it calm. We talk about Biff messages on here - brief, informative, friendly, formal. She will notice the difference and acting unpredictable can be effective sometimes.

So yes just wait and see if he comes next week-end. He might make a fuss if his Mum says no and it might happen. Take it one step at a time and let the dust settle for a few days. If he comes next week-end then she's just stopped the midweek time. That might change.

Yes 12 is significant, legally, but they're still not old enough to be confident about disobeying a parent. My son jumped ship at 15.

 

[Kyle]

Age: 43

Despite what our annoyed and frustrated minds tell us to do, (grab her and shake her), when you're dealing with someone who is as sharp as a steak hammer, doing the complete opposite of getting annoyed has a completely difference set of outcomes.

Karma and human psychology seem to go hand-in-hand.

Based on the iPhone debacle, she clearly can't be trusted to make logical, adult decisions, so, take that away from her in your own set of personal boundaries. That avoids future shock and disappointment and hopefully, further frustration allowing you to dad without interfering with dad-son time.

The current informal arrangement may be salvageable and the need to go to court avoided if you can regain control of the situation by feiging remorse (from trying to do the sensible thing by wiping the phone to save your son shock and embarrassment I know), but its worth a shot, making them feel like they have a little bit of faux power just to give you what you want. Unimpeded time with your son. Being a narcissist and an idiot also seem to go hand-in-hand but you can exploit that by giving them that false sense of power and control in order for it to be really gained by you.

That all said, no parent should be allowed to deny the other their role. And an order should put an end to that. It's just, the court process can be long and arduous.

 

[PoorMe]

Thank you very much for that, and other replies. She still refuses to communicate, despite me sending a more mollifying "look, I don't want to go to court, or even mediation, can't we communicate?" type of message yesterday.

I find out if she's doing this for real on Friday, when I should be picking my son up from her mother's for the weekend. If she won't reply and her mum won't answer the door, it's for real, because I don't think her mum would do that without thinking it's gone beyond.

As frequently true in these situations, I guess - my son's happy in his life as far as I can tell. This is all about me and her, nothing about him. I'm afraid she'll have me bang to rights for belittling her and the like in text messages over the years - 90% of the time in response to her being a nasty headcase towards me, though. But I did do that. But thinking it through, feeling very sad and mellow, all I want to do now is say to her that the pair of us have spent so much time and so long just flinging bile at each other through the lens of a messaging app, that we've both lost it on how to be with each other. Want to tell her we should go for a coffee (and let me tell you I don't ever feel like that!). Or do mediation, it would be good for us.

But I know she won't see it that way. She and her mum have convinced themselves that I'm an invalid person when it comes to parenting, for no other reason than I was the one who did the leaving 10 years ago (though she was the cause of me doing it), and that a couple years after that I had to live 150 miles away due to shocking financial reasons. I have no right to be doing things for my son, you see. So this is a culmination of things that have occurred recently, me opening a bank account for him (so he wouldn't need the rubbish kid's cash card thing and my mum, 150 miles away could put money in for him), buying him a school jumper (ffs) that he didn't have and she said he didn't need (it was snowing at the time, apparently I'm projecting my non-existent hypochondria onto him though), and the phone thing. Would seem that I any small life improvements I want to make for him aren't allowed. But I guess that validates the advice Kyle is giving. It wouldn't have hurt him too much not have these things, and I wouldn't have created a situation with an idiot.

If I make any overtures to her like what I've said above, she's just going to think I'm on the ropes and that she's actually got more power over me, because I'm scared. And that will just encourage her to do it.

Saddest thing about all this is, I saw my son had been on the Xbox chat, which is the only way I have of communicating with my son left now, because she's overlooked it for now (he hadn't been logged on all weekend so I didn't try to speak to him). But he had been on at 3am in the morning, this was last night (Sunday night). So I want to tell her so she can put a stop to it and say to him, what the bloody hell you doing on at 3am etc. But if I do, I've lost all chance of communicating directly with him. So I have to ignore it. Fantastic.

Sorry folks, now I'm rambling. I'm saying all this and it might not even happen. This isn't sposed to be a relationship therapy forum, is it lol. But it's cathartic, helps me out. My boss, who knows what's going on and is a good egg, will spot me and come and ask if I'm all right in a minute .

 

[Peanut 21]

This isn't sposed to be a relationship therapy forum, is it lol

It can be. I've had many a rant. It's a great outlet. No judgement, just solid advice

 

[Kyle]

Don't apologise for getting things off your chest in writing on here. As the forum list elludes, CAO's, court issues, social services/Cafcass, parenting problems, child maintanance, mind health and coping strategies are all relevant subjects as a 21st century UK dad.

You've identified what many separated parents come to realise. That you've spent so much time firing shots at each-other, you've missed the opportunity to co-parent for peace. But if human conflict was that easy to manage. There would have been no Troubles in Northern Ireland. No war in the middle-east and no need for a family law and court system to make decisions for people who are unable to agree because of that conflict.

We are only human. And we are driven by feelings, desires and emotions.

Trying to communicate with her and reason with her really is the right thing to do, despite it going against everything the subconscious Warrior Dad says in your mind. And the legal process should be a last resort. As even after navigating the long road to a final hearing and getting that court order, the two of you are still expected to communicate and cooperate to adhere to that order! So the goal of co-parenting for peace does not go away. It all depends on whether you can achieve that peace without court intervention.

Friday could decide that for you. But its still worth trying to articulate that the court process is going to be a nause for all involved, not just for you just as the father. She's going to have her arse dragged through it as well. Is that really what she wants? Really where she wants to take the situation? Because when that order is made, the stakes are higher if she wants to continue to play silly beggars and breaches it.

The informal arrangement seems quite good. And its important that she understands that she also benefits from it as the boy going to stay with dad gives her free time. I'm sure behind closed doors her mother doesn't want to keep being the safety net. Its the parents job to manage the situation. Grandparents have done their time. Raised their kids. She's in her 40's!! Surely Grandma wants to retire to a life of peace and normality?

These are all valid points to present if court is to be avoided and common sense is to prevail.

 

[Ash]

There are some things you can't control. It's not great but I know my son had all kinds of bad habits that were overlooked when at ex's - like staying up too late. But if you point that out to an ex they just get defensive and accuse you back of something - and sadly it doesn't make them better parents. I found the better way, in the end, is to just try and teach my son things when I saw him - like warn him against sitting up playing games too late at night (it might not make much difference!) and suggest to him that he wears a vest or t shirt under his shirt if it's snowing or wears a jumper he can take off when he gets to school. My son is a bit older and refuses to wear a jumper lol. I guess they have to learn by freezing first.

 

[PoorMe]

My ex just texted me out of the blue. Opened with some nonsense about the police, but said I could have my lad Friday thru Sunday. This misses out my regular Thurs, and no doubt on the off week she will also be denying the Thurs and Fri evenings then as well. So we're not out of the woods yet, because two days and an evening out of fourteen is not on, but I'll get the weekend out of the way first and maybe negotiate a little for an evening on the off week and let it go at that. Dunno, will see.

In her head she seems to have imagined that the police have told me that I can only have him when she says or something (they just told me they can't help when her mum slammed the door in my face last week - civil action, take it to the courts sunshine). This shows she has no real notion of court procedure, she likely has no strategy of any kind and, when she says "controlling" and "coercing" she's probably just parroting what's she's read on mumsnet for years and that's about it. I imagine to any solicitor she would be something of a challenge. But nonetheless, you don't have to be a genius to withhold access so it's kids' gloves time.

So I'm crediting her with too much brains (again). How to manage a maniac, by PoorMe. I've yet to encounter her mum, as well.

I did actually pour my heart out to her a little, told her I was very sad and cut up about all this, apologised for the phone situation, and said we should go to mediation because it would probably do us good, have some more real face time instead of messaging, in an effort to stave off the mardies. I meant every word, I want to stop being like this. But she was having none of it, ended by threatening court again. It's all very incoherent. I worry about her mental state, genuinely. But I guess I'm just being controlling, right? So she's on her own.

I'll report back on how other things go. With luck, this thread of mine will be an example to folks of how you can dodge a bullet. If not, to be continued.

Appreciate all the help gents, cheers.

 

[Ash]

Trouble is, as soon as you mention mediation, they think you're threatening court, so they threaten it back. Maybe just say - ok well lets just try and sort thing out between us. Sadly I do think this is all premeditated though because your son is 11. I might be wrong.

Maybe send her another brief message and keep emotion out of it and say something like

"I think this is something we can sort out between us without mediation - I just want us to try and get on better for xxxx's sake - it would affect him to lose his regular routine with me. Have a think about it - there's nothing that can't be sorted out."

 

[Kyle]

Starving those fires of conflict of what fuels it. Confrontation, retaliation, revenge, bitterness and spite, can be a great human psychology tactic when going up against someone who has become accustomed to that conflict and possibly learned to enjoy it. People who were formerly in relationships (especially with children) often descend into this post-relationship cycle of tit-for-tat retaliatory acts of spite simply to satisfy this sense of injustice and vengeance that was borne out of the relationship ending and their feelings being hurt. And this cycle of bitterness can last for years. I've been that person. And I'm sure most of us here have been there too.

Pouring your heart out and expressing remorse for the conflict can have an effect, if she's got a grain of empathy for you. If not, it could embolden her and give her a superiority complex, making dealing with her even worse.

When she threatens court, what she doesn't realise is that its going to be just as inconvenient for her. That's something all of these women fail to realise. She's still trying to inflict hurt on you, but cutting off her own nose to spite her face. But I think the fact that she's contacted you out of the blue to permit some time, though reduced to what you had previously and wrapped in more threats, means she's thought about it all, and there's something in there that's still open to reconciliation.

You know, as we all do, that if she does bring the barrier down on contact completely and there's no other choice, the court process is there to take advantage of. So you have that option. All is not lost. But by taking the sting out of the conflict you are in with her by changing tact and absorbing the things that previously triggered you and being more BIFF, could not only turn things around, but actually improve the situation.

Emphasis on the word COULD! It may take some time and some figuring out, or it may not work at all. But its always worth it to avoid court if you can.

 

[Ash]

She's still trying to inflict hurt on you, but cutting off her own nose to spite her face.

Spot on. I tried so many times to do things amicably or offer an olive branch (despite having been bullied and harrassed) just to have a sensible routine and put my son first. But no - she would rather keep being hostile and running up loads of court bills for both of us and years of stress. Which did nobody any good. Except she was enjoying that it was more stressful for me than her as she just did what she wanted.

 

[Ash]

Poorme. I suggest you have a MIAM asap and don't tell your ex. She's already declined mediation so have a MIAM and get signed off. Then you have that under your belt. It lasts four months. You might need to apply to court if your son doesn't come this week-end. See if you can get the MIAM done before the end of the week and take page 9 of the C100 with you saying you need to apply to court urgently. Even if it ends up not being urgent.

 

[Kyle]

Yep. Some of them just can't let it go. It takes over their whole persona and almost becomes what they live for. A sad existence. Particularly when its at the expense of the child as well. I wonder how your ex sleeps at night Ash, now that he's 15 and she's loosing that control.

It would be strategically sensible to have the court prerequisits in place (mediators certificate from a MIAM which you need to add to the C100) just in case the peace and love approach fails.

 

[Ash]

She has something missing - she'll never have remorse or empathy - she will continue to blame everyone else and feel angry at everyone else.

 

[Peanut 21]

Some of them just can't let it go. It takes over their whole persona and almost becomes what they live for

And when they can't punish the dads anymore, when court can't be used anymore, they up the anti with the kids. I think this is when they use the tactics making the kids feel guilty when they want to fly the nest.

 

[PoorMe]

I'm not clear about the MIAM strategy. If I go to a mediator then they are informing/inviting her, right? So there's a potential trigger there when at the moment the tactic is to talk her down. I'm not letting her cut my access in half. If she wants to make changes to my time with him on the off week then she'll have to offer some sort of compromise, there's no way I'm going to see him once a fortnight when he's 3 miles away. This can be discussed at mediation if the initial suggestion isn't entertained by her. If she doesn't want to attend mediation then we're off and running and I score the first point. I'm not clear how doing a unilateral MIAM and getting that C100 done hotfoot is a useful thing when it should be a last resort?

I have a different sort of question: I don't expect a court is going to be interested in the minutiae of two idiots insulting each other over 10 years of toxic texting. But I have all texts backed up (not just from my ex, from everyone) for the last 10 years, and I can go through them. Presumably I might cherry pick out some significant events from those, in as much as I should. But what about compiling some numbers on them for summary? I'm not a data analyst as such but I do do some such things in my day job. I could put together a quantified summary of, for example, number of times where I insulted her following a threat by her to stop me seeing my son (has happened enough times to be regular occurrences). This as an (admittedly subjective) way of defending myself against accusations of belittling her. Could even set it out in pretty graphs and whatever. This is just one example, there's other data sets of this type one can distill from the texting record.

But is this sort of thing useful or would come across too weird in court? Maybe Cafcass uses this sort of approach already (I suspect not, lol, resource to do this is in any detail is going to be huge), I have no idea. Thoughts on that? It's just something that crossed my mind.