Going into my final hearing. What are my chances of getting alternate weekend contact?

[gt46tt]

I am going in my final hearing in 5 weeks time. Theres been an 18 month gap in contact with my 3yr old child. Ive only had supervised visits so far. Of which there will have been 4 months of supervised contact so far when I get to this hearing.Im not sure what kind of long term order there will be given the gap in contact and only having supervised visits so far.

Im seeking alternate weekends at the final hearing. Then having a review in a year to move onto to 50/50 contact. Anyone know what my chances are of getting alternate weekends as a starting point for my final hearing. Given that I've only had limited supervised contact so far. Im presuming based on alot of stuff I've read that the Judge will simply say there's not been not enough contact particularly unsupervised contact for the court to make a long term final order and he may call us back for another date for the final hearing.

At my last hearing I was actually given 5 hours of unsupervised contact also a week. But that only starts in 5 weeks time which is also when my next hearing is. Hence as I go into this final hearing there wont be any unsupervised contact on the record. Because of this I was thinking of trying to request for my next hearing to be ajourned for a later date untill I've had at least a couple months of unspervised contact on the records. So that the final hearing is more likely to go in my favour instead of the old addage. "You have not has enough contact for us to give a lives with order"... you must first complete unspervised contact.

 

[Militant Widow]

Hi there,

Sorry to hear of such a long separation from your child. I've just come out of a final hearing where I applied with for my 5YO daughter.

From my experience, and my limited knowledge, I think your justification and idea to adjourn for a later are a good idea.

I also think from my experience that getting to 50/50 contact from your point now is 'optimistic', but you'd have the better chance with unsupervised contact under your belt, and longer to prepare an exemplary impresion of yourself. However, I believe most of what determines the outcome is who has most money to throw at the process.

Best of luck

 

[gt46tt]

Hi there,

Sorry to hear of such a long separation from your child. I've just come out of a final hearing where I applied with for my 5YO daughter.

From my experience, and my limited knowledge, I think your justification and idea to adjourn for a later are a good idea.

I also think from my experience that getting to 50/50 contact from your point now is 'optimistic', but you'd have the better chance with unsupervised contact under your belt, and longer to prepare an exemplary impresion of yourself. However, I believe most of what determines the outcome is who has most money to throw at the process.

Best of luck

Yes it has been long and painful experience to go through. I'm not sure why they gave my final hearing so soon after my last hearing. Its only 5 weeks apart when all my hearing up to know have been 5 months apart.

I will try and write to the court via c2 application to get them to change this date. But there's no gaurantee they will do it as its up to the Judge. I've read that they don't like adjourning final hearings without valid reasons. I do have alot of reasons actually such as I'm still waiting for reports and other evidences to come through and they won't come in time before the next hearing.

Yeh 50/50 seems like it's hard to get and comes after a long while of trying and going through the process. I don't mind getting alternate weekends and working my way up. But first I need unsupervised contact under the belt first as you mentioned. Hope your case went well.

 

[gt46tt]

Hi there,

Sorry to hear of such a long separation from your child. I've just come out of a final hearing where I applied with for my 5YO daughter.

From my experience, and my limited knowledge, I think your justification and idea to adjourn for a later are a good idea.

I also think from my experience that getting to 50/50 contact from your point now is 'optimistic', but you'd have the better chance with unsupervised contact under your belt, and longer to prepare an exemplary impresion of yourself. However, I believe most of what determines the outcome is who has most money to throw at the process.

Best of luck

Hi,
Yes it has been long and painful experience to go through. I'm not sure why they gave my final hearing so soon after my last hearing. Its only 5 weeks apart when all my hearings up to now have been 5 months apart.

I will try and write to the court via C2 application to get them to change this date. But there's no gaurantee they will do it as its up to the judge. I've read that they don't like adjourning final hearings without valid reasons. I do have alot of reasons actually such as I'm still waiting for reports and other evidences to come through and they won't come in time before the next hearing.

Yeh 50/50 seems like it's hard to get and comes after a long while of trying and going through the process. I don't mind getting alternate weekends and working my way up. But first I need unsupervised contact under the belt first, as you mentioned. Hope your case went well and you got what you wanted? Its hard when the the little ones are young.

 

[Militant Widow]

If you're still on supervised contact then Cafcass or some other authorised to impose it might (rightly or wrongly) have a less than positive view of you. Do you trust that authority, is it Cafcass? Sounds like your main barrier at this point.

Asking the court to change things in general may signal to judge you're not prioritising the children's needs above your own, and that you're prevaricating...or it can be spun that way.

No, my case went badly and I'm embittered by the experience, I hope I can prevent others fall into the same trap. PM if you need any more specific info. I didn't need supervised contact and I still couldn't get to 50/50.

Alternate weekends doesn't sound like much of a stretch though? I think a lawyer could promptly tell you if that's achievable.

 

[Ash]

Providing there are no welfare issues and no reason to continue with supervised time, then the court could just order a progressing order for unsupervised, starting with a few hours a week and building up to every other week-end (I also think 50/50 is optimistic but progression could be every other week-end and a midweek overnight, which is fairly standard - plus half school holidays when a child gets to school age).

One factor may be what Cafcass have recommended - did you have a Section 7 report and what did Cafcass recommend?

It's a tricky one as yes it could be good to have another interim hearing and progress to unsupervised and overnights before a final hearing. On the other hand that progression can be ordered as part of a final hearing - so a lot will depend on what Cafcass have recommended. You can actually cross examine Cafcass at a final hearing and undermine their report as flawed.

 

[Militant Widow]

Providing there are no welfare issues and no reason to continue with supervised time, then the court could just order a progressing order for unsupervised, starting with a few hours a week and building up to every other week-end (I also think 50/50 is optimistic but progression could be every other week-end and a midweek overnight, which is fairly standard - plus half school holidays when a child gets to school age).

One factor may be what Cafcass have recommended - did you have a Section 7 report and what did Cafcass recommend?

It's a tricky one as yes it could be good to have another interim hearing and progress to unsupervised and overnights before a final hearing. On the other hand that progression can be ordered as part of a final hearing - so a lot will depend on what Cafcass have recommended. You can actually cross examine Cafcass at a final hearing and undermine their report as flawed.

I couldn't get to even that standard arrangement you quote, and the other side is not even my daughter's parent nor a UK resident!

Additionally, if Cafcass make any "mistakes" in their Report, it signals they can get away with it. Our Cafcass didn't comply with the Court Order, ignored the advice of the ISW they themselves commissioned, and the judge >still< cited their Report as exemplary.

Relying on professionals that remain in the same cohort (or cabal, depending on your experience) long after you're gone is a huge gamble, I'm relying on my child to be the ultimate judge when she gets older. Law is privatised in the UK, expect the winners to be those with deepest pockets.

 

[gt46tt]

Providing there are no welfare issues and no reason to continue with supervised time, then the court could just order a progressing order for unsupervised, starting with a few hours a week and building up to every other week-end (I also think 50/50 is optimistic but progression could be every other week-end and a midweek overnight, which is fairly standard - plus half school holidays when a child gets to school age).

One factor may be what Cafcass have recommended - did you have a Section 7 report and what did Cafcass recommend?

It's a tricky one as yes it could be good to have another interim hearing and progress to unsupervised and overnights before a final hearing. On the other hand that progression can be ordered as part of a final hearing - so a lot will depend on what Cafcass have recommended. You can actually cross examine Cafcass at a final hearing and undermine their report as flawed.

The Cafcass report was quite favourable for me. There were no safegaurding concerns and I was praised alot in the report for having a very good attachment to my child, my home being good for over night stays and contact should increase. Cafcass reccomended there should be a steady progression of contact. Starting with 5 hours of unsupervised each week then increase from there. The report just stated each of our allegations against each other. But never said there was evidence behind these allegations.

Currently my plan is to complete a C2 application and request that the final be ajourned for a later date. This is for a number of reasons. There's a seperate social services report that won't be ready in time for the hearing. I've applied for legal aid to assist in my final hearing but this won't be ready in time. I've also requested the section 7 report to be reviewed/addended and won't be ready by the time of the next hearing also. So much evidence and witness statements will also not be ready. Hence I'm thinking they might even ajourn the hearing if I go to it anyway.

At the moment I'm trying to persuade the court to ajourn the hearing for 2 to 3 months later. As I'm not ready for a final hearing. I'm not sure if they will ajourn or not and give more more time get all my reports and preparation done.

The respondent will probably want this hearing to go ahead. As if there's been no history of unsupervised then the court can't really progress to overnight stays. I've got a feeling the Court have given a really early hearing on purpose. They are aways trying to give fathers less contact as possible and looking for any opportunities to do this. Not sure how they managed to give me a final hearing five weeks after my last one. As its been 1 every 5 months up to now. Seems a bit fishy. I'm not sure if the Judge has anything to do when you get your hearing or if it's the admin of the court who decide.

 

[Ash]

A few people have had hearing dates quite quickly recently - it might just be the court backlog is improving and they are always mindful of the principle of avoiding delay for the child.

What exactly is the social services report you're waiting for and is it related to you getting legal aid? I think you need to be careful, as if it's anything negative about the ex it may do your case more harm than good if they decide there is ongoing conflict between parents and more allegations.

You've had a good Cafcass report that says "then increase from there". That to me says a final order will progress to unsupervised a few hours a week then a day, then overnights, then a full order. And that can be argued for if Cafcass are supportive of you being involved. It's quite common for Dads to get supervised only right up to a final hearing. It's the final hearing that determines it becomes unsupervised, because any other hearing would probably need the ex to agree to unsupervised and she might not.

I think on balance, I would go ahead with the final hearing. If you don't get a good progressing order, you could then appeal - but if you use a Barrister for the final hearing, there is no bar to you having a full order as Cafcass had no issues with you progressing.

I know it seems tempting to get all kinds of other things sorted first but the important things are

a) The Cafcass report
b) Your final statement and evidence - in which you want to be child focused and not criticising the ex. Her final statement is bound to be full of mud slinging.

If you do have serious concerns about the ex's parenting abilities and social services are involved - that can be dealt with at any time - after your final hearing.

So my view is - it's probably best not to try and adjourn and you might not be successful anyway. I can't see what you can gain from adjourning.

Can you remind me if it's a DJ or Magistrates?

 

[Ash]

I couldn't get to even that standard arrangement you quote, and the other side is not even my daughter's parent nor a UK resident!

Additionally, if Cafcass make any "mistakes" in their Report, it signals they can get away with it. Our Cafcass didn't comply with the Court Order, ignored the advice of the ISW they themselves commissioned, and the judge >still< cited their Report as exemplary.

Relying on professionals that remain in the same cohort (or cabal, depending on your experience) long after you're gone is a huge gamble, I'm relying on my child to be the ultimate judge when she gets older. Law is privatised in the UK, expect the winners to be those with deepest pockets.

I'm sorry to hear that. Every case is different. Cafcass do have a lot of power and if they take against you ...........Did you get Cafcass cross examined at your final hearing?

 

[gt46tt]

If you're still on supervised contact then Cafcass or some other authorised to impose it might (rightly or wrongly) have a less than positive view of you. Do you trust that authority, is it Cafcass? Sounds like your main barrier at this point.

Asking the court to change things in general may signal to judge you're not prioritising the children's needs above your own, and that you're prevaricating...or it can be spun that way.

No, my case went badly and I'm embittered by the experience, I hope I can prevent others fall into the same trap. PM if you need any more specific info. I didn't need supervised contact and I still couldn't get to 50/50.

Alternate weekends doesn't sound like much of a stretch though? I think a lawyer could promptly tell you if that's achievable.

Yeah I think alternate weekends and 1 day during the week is the standard most fathers get after seperation. But even getting that is quite hard. Multiple hearings and statements, years in court. The system needs to be reformed.

 

[gt46tt]

I couldn't get to even that standard arrangement you quote, and the other side is not even my daughter's parent nor a UK resident!

I've heard of a few cases like this. It seems it does not make any difference if your a uk resident or not. This should matter as if your immigration status is not a sure thing this should be classed as maybe a risk. But the court system often favours the bad guy.

 

[Militant Widow]

I'm sorry to hear that. Every case is different. Cafcass do have a lot of power and if they take against you ...........Did you get Cafcass cross examined at your final hearing?

Yes, Cafcass were cross-examined and I had a superb barrister who played every card they could ethically justify to highlight their errors. Amongst other things, Cafcass didn't even observe my "contact" once over the year they were involved, even though the court order specified it.

I thought I had it made in the Hearing, however if they making such blinding errors, it's because they can get away with it. The finance behind their case was overwhelming, I believe it was a case of "this is the result, we'll find a way of justifying it".

This case was very unique and I'd rather not say anything more in public, and they struggled to pin anything on me other than my "approach". I've replied in another thread about the fact that sometimes taking the best action for your child damages yourself legally.

 

[Militant Widow]

I've heard of a few cases like this. It seems it does not make any difference if your a uk resident or not. This should matter as if your immigration status is not a sure thing this should be classed as maybe a risk. But the court system often favours the bad guy.

That's right, if the court awards Lives With in their favour, then they'll more than likely obtain the visa anyway, and if they've broken other laws, it doesn't matter as they're caring for a child.

The worst part of it for me, is that person now has the right to entrain unlimited people into my child's life who have more right to be with my child than I do. None of these people will have had to undergo the assessment by Cafcass etc.

 

[Windmill51]

I am going in my final hearing in 5 weeks time. Theres been an 18 month gap in contact with my 3yr old child. Ive only had supervised visits so far. Of which there will have been 4 months of supervised contact so far when I get to this hearing.Im not sure what kind of long term order there will be given the gap in contact and only having supervised visits so far.

Im seeking alternate weekends at the final hearing. Then having a review in a year to move onto to 50/50 contact. Anyone know what my chances are of getting alternate weekends as a starting point for my final hearing. Given that I've only had limited supervised contact so far. Im presuming based on alot of stuff I've read that the Judge will simply say there's not been not enough contact particularly unsupervised contact for the court to make a long term final order and he may call us back for another date for the final hearing.

At my last hearing I was actually given 5 hours of unsupervised contact also a week. But that only starts in 5 weeks time which is also when my next hearing is. Hence as I go into this final hearing there wont be any unsupervised contact on the record. Because of this I was thinking of trying to request for my next hearing to be ajourned for a later date untill I've had at least a couple months of unspervised contact on the records. So that the final hearing is more likely to go in my favour instead of the old addage. "You have not has enough contact for us to give a lives with order"... you must first complete unspervised contact.

I just had my final hearing and I was in a very similar position to the one you described. As everyone has said, what have Cafcass said in the S7 recommendations post the unsupervised community time? Or is that not spelt out?

I got EOW ordered, half holidays etc, my little one is very similar age to yours also. I have requested reasoning from the court for the decisions made which I have been chasing as I am considering an appeal/application to vary in a years time. I still have not got these even though they were promised last week... I feel like they are making up reasons now.

I tried the same in delaying this 'final hearing' and that the final order was not to be discussed for a further 6 months, unfortunately it did not work as the courts are eager to get cases closed. Maybe you will have more success then me.

To answer your question, I think of course it can happen, stay positive, ensure your statement for the FH is completely child focussed.
Let us know how you get on.