Flight risk/possible CAO breach/PSO.

[Dirge]

Hi all, my daughter let slip a while ago that their mother, my ex, is planning to take our children on "holiday" to her home country, at Christmas. Plans involve taking them out of school a week early and then staying abroad for 3 weeks. She has a property abroad, and I fear that once the financial divorce settlement has been fully processed, she is going to abscond with the kids. I asked around privately, (thanks @Ash ), and it seems a prohibited steps order, along with a specific issues order would be my next step. Since December is a way off, the settlement hasn't been paid yet, and I wasn't supposed to know, I decided to wait until financials were completed before starting a PSO application. Today my ex messaged me to state exactly what she was planning to do, not requesting or attempting to negotiate, just stating. Unless I give my permission, taking the children away for 3 weeks over Christmas would breach our CAO, since that states specifically that I have time with the children at Christmas. The arrogant b=tch even said I should get my solicitor to draw up an official agreement.
I think I need to apply straight away and found a link on here for a C2, is that the right form to make a PSO application?
Should I respond to ex saying I don't agree before or after putting in a PSO application? Could she somehow over turn the CAO and get permission from court to take them out of the country without my consent? Could she actually apply for a specific issues order giving her permission? If she just goes ahead anyway and breaches the CAO, so I don't get to see the children over Christmas, assuming they come back at all, would there be any consequences realistically? (Mothers just seem to get away with virtually everything). Ex states she has applied to passport office to get old passport numbers so she can apply for new passports, anything I can do about who holds the passports?
A lot of questions, would appreciate any answers and advice about completing a PSO application. Cheers.

 

[Jumper85]

I would ensure you respond to her stating you're not in agreement with her taking them so you've got a clear audit trail of the dis-approval. She can't take them without your consent nor can the CAO be overturned without the court signing it off and that's again not possible without your knowledge (unless there is some sort of exceptions case but would assume this would be in extreme cases).

Do the children hold your surname or the mothers? There isn't much you can do about the passport renewal I wouldn't have thought but is the children hold your surname, she should be stopped at the airport and asked whether she has permission to take them by their own processes. She should be carrying a letter of approval from you.

 

[Dirge]

Cheers for the reply @Jumper85 . The children do hold my surname. My ex still has my surname too, so don't know what would alert the passport control at the airport that she may need permission to travel with the children. I should imagine they are busy people and wouldn't take the time to check unless something was flagged.

 

[bujanin]

Nothing will alert the passport control they're working flat out any way. If the kids have passports they'll be through.
Perhaps the fact that she's asking for permission and has stated a three week holiday means that she doesn't have any bigger plans otherwise she'd just go.
A PSO won't stop her leaving the country it can't be policed at the border but you most defintley should still apply for one if you feel that she might take them from the jurisdiction. A PSO puts her under notice and if she does the worst it could take years and lots of money to get them back. If a PSO is put in place something can be done to secure the passports. My childs English passport had to be surrendered although she has two.

If the CAO grants you time at Xmas keep it as your time would be my recommendation. Be strident and take the formal steps to secure what you and your kids have.

 

[Dirge]

Thanks @bujanin. Ex wasn't asking, she was telling me. Maybe ex wants my/court permission to make life easier for herself, and maybe to tell the kids - see, daddy said it was ok to go, and then work on the PA from there.
"A PSO puts her under notice and if she does the worst it could take years and lots of money to get them back." was thinking that too, and unfortunately my kids have dual nationality too, which means if they travel on foreign passports, they can leave the Uk, enter the Country of choice but not re enter the Uk again. It seems she could get away with just going and not coming back. At least if she did abscond and I was ever to be reunited with my children, I could say I did everything I could to stop her. Tips on applying for PSO anyone?

 

[Pj66]

You do not have to agree to her taking kids away for Christmas during your court ordered time. She can't just "state" she is taking the kids away for Christmas when there is a court order that says child spends time with you.

I would apply for a PSO purely on that basis. I'd message her stating the objection as it's during your court ordered time, then apply right away with our informing her.

If she absconds, she absconds, but do not let her do it without breaching both a CAO and PSO and having your objection in place, if she wants to do it, she has to argue to the court why Christmas is in the best interests of the kids instead of any other time of the year, wish her well with that one.

She's needs your consent if it's in your court ordered time, even if she has residency.

I would bring up at the hearing about your concerns of absconding due to financial settlement, and passports. If she absconds, she's got the full legal ramifications set and ready for doing so.

If you get wind she's still going to go against courts decision, alert border control.
, the alert will be in place for 30days. Don't give her an inch.

I would actually do it the other way round now, delay financials until the PSO is dealt with, if she absconds, she's damn well doing it broke.

 

[Dirge]

Just looking online and the form to use for PSO application seems to be C100. Guidance states need MIAM certificate - thought that was just for CAO applications, and where does the C2 form come into it? @Pj66, the financial settlement has been fixed at a second court hearing, they just haven't been actioned yet, but any day now, solicitors are dragging their feet.

 

[Ash]

A C2 is instead of a C100 if you still have a case going on - so you use a C2 if it's during proceedings. If it's after a final order then you use a C100.

I agree with Jumper in that the first thing to do is make it clear, politely and formally, in writing that you don't agree.

So if it's court ordered they spend Christmas with you - is that part of an interim order or a final order? If it's part of an interim order then check the order wording carefully to see that the time is actually "ordered" rather than under recitals.

Assume her argument would be she has family abroad so needs a long enough holiday period over Christmas. What does your order actually say for Christmas this year? Is it half the Christmas holidays? And is it your year for Christmas this year? And were the Christmas ordered dates agreed by consent or did the court decide on them? It would help to know when wording a message.

Assuming the time is actually ordered then maybe send something like

"Hi. I am not in agreement with you taking the children abroad over Christmas between x date and x date, because the court order states they are to be in my care between x date and x date. To ignore that would be contempt of court."

I think it might be an idea to apply for a PSO as well - then she could always apply for a specific issues order at the PSO hearing but the she would need to show the court she wasn't a flight risk. And you would need to explain why she is in your application.

What stage is your court case at?

 

[Dirge]

Thanks @Ash. CAO is a final order that has been sealed by court. Financial settlement has been sealed by court too, but not actioned yet, but certainly by Christmas ex will have a significant lump sum settlement from me. The CAO states time with me is Christmas day noon to boxing day noon, then as per usual term time arrangement, which is 3 nights per week with me. I'm still not clear, do I have to do another MIAM before applying for a PSO if I have a final, sealed CAO?

 

[Ash]

If it's for an urgent PSO you shouldn't have to do a MIAM. However the courts might say it's not urgent because she told you about going away at Christmas, not before. To be on the safe side I would get a MIAM sign off. Annoying I know, as well as the extra cost.

I suppose, thinking about it, your concern might be that if you message her to say you don't agree to the holiday, she might do a runner sooner? In which case maybe apply for the PSO first urgently. You could try doing that without a MIAM and explain that you feel unable to communicate disagreement in case she just leaves the country in response. Whenever I had urgent applications I got a MIAM sign off anyway just to be sure the application was accepted. I don't know if that is strictly necessary, but once you have a final order, they expect people to try mediation before applying to court again. It's not great though when you have to pay for a MIAM AND a court application.

So two options:

1) Put in for urgent 48 hour PSO without a MIAM and see if it's accepted.
2) Get a MIAM sign off and put in for an urgent PSO.

 

[Dirge]

Thanks for the advice @Ash, is urgent and non urgent PSO application done on the same form, C100? Think I'll do a MIAM just to be on the safe side, get the application form filled in so it's ready to send off as soon as I get MIAM done then tell ex I'm not in agreement.

 

[Ash]

Yes. You just tick the box for urgent hearing and put 48 hours.

 

[Dirge]

Maybe everyone is aware already, but just tried to book a MIAM and was told the rules changed in April 24 - Mediators have to contact the other party to offer mediation, they can't just sign you off straight away anymore. Seems like this gives a massive heads up to ex as to what you are planning.

 

[Ash]

I didn't know that.

 

[Dirge]

I thought it was strange that no one on the forum had flagged it. Wonder if the mediator who told me has got it right. She also said you definitely gave to do a MIAM before applying for a PSO - which will slow things down if it is an urgent application.

 

[Pj66]

This doesn't make sense though, how can a mediation be necessary for an urgent PSO for absconding? It is just tipping off the mother.

I'd just urgent PSO it and tick abduction, I highly doubt a court will through that out because there is no MIAM certificate.

 

[Dirge]

I started another thread about changes to MIAM, but basically had a MIAM today and got a sign off certificate. Think I only got it because I stressed the urgent situation.

 

[Liverpool07]

This doesn't make sense though, how can a mediation be necessary for an urgent PSO for absconding? It is just tipping off the mother.

I'd just urgent PSO it and tick abduction, I highly doubt a court will through that out because there is no MIAM certificate.

I applied for a PSO without notice on an urgent basis in May and it was passed.