Final Hearing ?

[Conan]

Hello all
What a journey this has been. Had the DRA hearing on Monday. Interesting day. Thoughts to share:

1.Travelled by train in the morning and then received an email at 08.03am from the other side outlining more attacks to get a s25 psychological assessment on me
2. Her barristers absolute Rottweiler.
3. Wife represented with Barrister and Solicitor
4. Thought I was sole represented as LIP to be ripped apart,had my own counsel (same one throughout).
5. Other side tried to bully and intimidate my Barrister, how unreasonable and incredulous he was in their behaviour and unwillingness to have any proactive discussion, pure aggression.
6. The Judge sat on the fence too much and didn't provide enough guidance and direction, My Barrister wanted a timeline to get supervised contact and unsupervised access, overnights in place but Judge didn't budge.
7. Mum provided no guidance on movement just trying to hammer me for an assessment.
8. Mum ignored contact centre requests and would only insist contact is via ISW, her ISW (Barrister persuaded me to go with it to get contact restarted). No direct contact with the kids for over 9 weeks.
9. Cafcass was a wet lettuce and didn't even back up her own recommendations for swift progression towards unsupervised access, overnights

Outcome of the hearing (we go forward to a estimated 2 day Final Hearing - no date set):

Ruling
1. S25 assessment - dismissed.
2. Progression with supervised contact through a ISW but her brief limited to report on contact NOT assessments.
3. ISW to observe contact but has influence on how contact can progress eg towards unsupervised, re-instigating overnights back home etc (I pay half of these costs)
4. Cafcass to provide append um to her report following contact reports

Need to crack on now and see where I go from here.. Been a long hard slog.

 

[Ash]

Sounds like a nightmare and ridiculous you have to pay an ISW to see your kids - but at least you have that and hopefully there will be progression before the final hearing. Sounds like the two barristers were going at it and Judge and Cafcass sat back and let them.

 

[Conan]

Sounds like a nightmare and ridiculous you have to pay an ISW to see your kids - but at least you have that and hopefully there will be progression before the final hearing. Sounds like the two barristers were going at it and Judge and Cafcass sat back and let them.

Hi Ash
Thank you for your response. Yes it is ridiculous but this is the lengths Mum is going to prevent access.

I will have to 'play the game' to get motion, and the Judge ordered that access to take place immediately but via this ISW. However, her brief to supervise is limited. The other side wanted assessment on top but that was dismissed. Mum also not prepared to engage with contact centres etc. So have to go with this approach to get things moving.

No date set for the Final Hearing as yet. The sad thing about all of this is that an order progressing the DRA could have taken place on Monday but the Barriers put up by Mum and her legal team to prevent things moving forward were horrendous.

 

[bujanin]

Hello all
What a journey this has been. Had the DRA hearing on Monday. Interesting day. Thoughts to share:

1.Travelled by train in the morning and then received an email at 08.03am from the other side outlining more attacks to get a s25 psychological assessment on me
2. Her barristers absolute Rottweiler.
3. Wife represented with Barrister and Solicitor
4. Thought I was sole represented as LIP to be ripped apart,had my own counsel (same one throughout).
5. Other side tried to bully and intimidate my Barrister, how unreasonable and incredulous he was in their behaviour and unwillingness to have any proactive discussion, pure aggression.
6. The Judge sat on the fence too much and didn't provide enough guidance and direction, My Barrister wanted a timeline to get supervised contact and unsupervised access, overnights in place but Judge didn't budge.
7. Mum provided no guidance on movement just trying to hammer me for an assessment.
8. Mum ignored contact centre requests and would only insist contact is via ISW, her ISW (Barrister persuaded me to go with it to get contact restarted). No direct contact with the kids for over 9 weeks.
9. Cafcass was a wet lettuce and didn't even back up her own recommendations for swift progression towards unsupervised access, overnights

Outcome of the hearing (we go forward to a estimated 2 day Final Hearing - no date set):

Ruling
1. S25 assessment - dismissed.
2. Progression with supervised contact through a ISW but her brief limited to report on contact NOT assessments.
3. ISW to observe contact but has influence on how contact can progress eg towards unsupervised, re-instigating overnights back home etc (I pay half of these costs)
4. Cafcass to provide append um to her report following contact reports

Need to crack on now and see where I go from here.. Been a long hard slog.

Can I ask how much contact will you have from now and where will it be if not at a contact centre? Presumably the ISW costs will be split between you and the mother. You must be looking forward to seeing your kids again that's the big plus isn't it.

It reads like the Judge is not the one quite in control of matters.

 

[Conan]

Can I ask how much contact will you have from now and where will it be if not at a contact centre? Presumably the ISW costs will be split between you and the mother. You must be looking forward to seeing your kids again that's the big plus isn't it.

It reads like the Judge is not the one quite in control of matters.

Hi Bujanin
Its to recommence with 2 hours per week (but as recommended by Cafcass, should increase to unsupervised and then overnights) but its is dictated by the ISW how it progresses. But yes, you're right I can't wait to see my kids again.

The Judge, I think he's very frustrating.

 

[Kev19]

Hi Conan, my experience with the family centre has not been good and struggled to bond with my daughter due to the way it’s set up, always feeling I was at arms length and unsupported. An ISW may be the way forward for me so I am very interested hearing about your up and coming experiences with an ISW
Involvement

 

[Conan]

Hi Conan, my experience with the family centre has not been good and struggled to bond with my daughter due to the way it’s set up, always feeling I was at arms length and unsupported. An ISW may be the way forward for me so I am very interested hearing about your up and coming experiences with an ISW
Involvement

Hiya Kev,
I'm so sorry to hear what you're going through. I know how hard it is not being with your kids. I'm hoping to get direct contact with my daughters happening soon but = as always- theirs an obstacle in the way.

Since Monday's hearing (DRA) Mum's barrister is being unreasonable and will not properly engage with my barrister on the drafting of the order. They are now in dispute between them and so it has to go back to the Judge. She is attacking my barrister in the drafting of the order and using procedural rules.

She is attacking his drafting of the recitals and she is stating her offense of them under the President’s Guidance or the May 2023 house rules that are reiterated in Re TBeyond reiteration, Re T. My barrister has responded that they do not (in my view) add anything further to the picture.

Its a deliberate tactic to remove all the recitals which give direction to the ISW and her limited brief to observe supervise contact and not to undertake any formal assessments as ruled by the Judge. As they cannot agree, it has now been forwarded to the Judge to resolve. In the meantime, I am being delayed contact with the children which is against their wishes and as ordered by the Judge that contact should be reinstated immediately.

Useful lessons to keep learning regarding tactics used in the court to prevent you seeing your children.

 

[Conan]

Would appreciate advice on final hearings from the group?

 

[Conan]

I guess a learning for me and should have insisted we had a signed order in place before we left court last Monday.

Still waiting on the judge to decide, so i can get contact with my daughters progressing again. Its absolute agony for me not seeing the children

 

[Scoobydoo]

I feel for you but not sure how you can speed it up if they have locked horns … judges are not very quick as they have such a work load so fingers crossed it’s resolved quickly .. try not to let it bother you. Her counsel are just doing there job / with merit or just being twats

It will get resolved .. please try to keep calm and focused. It’s out of your hands . You can only control what you can .. trying to leave with one would have been difficult when you have 2 barristers and a judge who probably had another hearing waiting. Don’t look back. Look forward my friend and stay positive

 

[Richie1989]

From my experience barristers locking horns does not mean there isn’t a good arrangement for you at the end of it. I had an urgent order accepted which became a dispute hearing my exs barrister was a monster and my barrister was a shrinking violet. My ex barrister for the position they were in absolutely smashed it! My barrister really didn’t know which way to turn. After the hearing my barrister even told me I wouldn’t get 50/50 and for the final hearing it relate for a compromise. Sadly the egos of the barristers became more important that the actual situation. It made me feel very confused and very uncertain about things. I was still only seeing my daughter at this point 2 hours a week supervised. The judge ordered a final hearing and I was thinking there is no way I am going to from from 2 hours a week supervised to 50/50 from the period September to final hearing in Feb. I had passed to Pert tests, mental health assessment/report, NFA police reports, no previous convictions. You get the idea. The only thing my ex/barrister agreed to at the urgent hearing was no more testing after I urged my barrister to push for reciprocated testing, no longer supervised and my time would move to one over night a fortnight and then the 2.5 hours on a Wednesday still. Still a rubbish arrangement. I was expecting at this point maybe 3 nights a fortnight maximum. Wednesday overnight and every other weekend. Mainly as my barrister said this is likely when I suggested it after her very defeated above comment.

My out come at final hearing was 6 overnights and a Sunday until 5pm. Shared live with arrangement and half of all holidays. I fell to my knees and cried when I got home and was alone in my room with relief.

My point is don’t be disheartened from your hearing. If your ex/ exs barrister won’t budge at final hearing and you don’t have anything going against you. No substance abuse problems, no convictions that could make the judge think their is safeguarding concerns etc etc and you don’t try and muddling, call your ex a liar, don’t accuse of parental alienation. Basically focus on the child 100% then the judge will be inclined to give you a decent order if your ex doesn’t consent and you need the judge to decide.

It’s very very disheartening and I was feeling same as you but don’t give up. The judge can’t really influence the arrangement until final hearing and until the final hearing it’s all about you, your ex and your barristers trying to compromise. The judge works with evidence and reports for final hearing.

Hope this offers some positivity and keeps you going. Focus on that end goal and keep strong for the final hearing.

Fight fight fight and fight some more!

 

[KG70]

From my experience barristers locking horns does not mean there isn’t a good arrangement for you at the end of it. I had an urgent order accepted which became a dispute hearing my exs barrister was a monster and my barrister was a shrinking violet. My ex barrister for the position they were in absolutely smashed it! My barrister really didn’t know which way to turn. After the hearing my barrister even told me I wouldn’t get 50/50 and for the final hearing it relate for a compromise. Sadly the egos of the barristers became more important that the actual situation. It made me feel very confused and very uncertain about things. I was still only seeing my daughter at this point 2 hours a week supervised. The judge ordered a final hearing and I was thinking there is no way I am going to from from 2 hours a week supervised to 50/50 from the period September to final hearing in Feb. I had passed to Pert tests, mental health assessment/report, NFA police reports, no previous convictions. You get the idea. The only thing my ex/barrister agreed to at the urgent hearing was no more testing after I urged my barrister to push for reciprocated testing, no longer supervised and my time would move to one over night a fortnight and then the 2.5 hours on a Wednesday still. Still a rubbish arrangement. I was expecting at this point maybe 3 nights a fortnight maximum. Wednesday overnight and every other weekend. Mainly as my barrister said this is likely when I suggested it after her very defeated above comment.

My out come at final hearing was 6 overnights and a Sunday until 5pm. Shared live with arrangement and half of all holidays. I fell to my knees and cried when I got home and was alone in my room with relief.

My point is don’t be disheartened from your hearing. If your ex/ exs barrister won’t budge at final hearing and you don’t have anything going against you. No substance abuse problems, no convictions that could make the judge think their is safeguarding concerns etc etc and you don’t try and muddling, call your ex a liar, don’t accuse of parental alienation. Basically focus on the child 100% then the judge will be inclined to give you a decent order if your ex doesn’t consent and you need the judge to decide.

It’s very very disheartening and I was feeling same as you but don’t give up. The judge can’t really influence the arrangement until final hearing and until the final hearing it’s all about you, your ex and your barristers trying to compromise. The judge works with evidence and reports for final hearing.

Hope this offers some positivity and keeps you going. Focus on that end goal and keep strong for the final hearing.

Fight fight fight and fight some more!

Did you have a different Barrister at the final hearing? Was there an S7 report?

 

[Richie1989]

Did you have a different Barrister at the final hearing? Was there an S7 report?

Yes, I had 3 different ones for each hearing. For the final hearing I went all out and used one that @Ash recommended after scrolling legal 500 he was fantastic! Before that I used recommended barristers via my solicitor. Yes a 3rd of the price but this was reflective in quality/experience etc. the first one wasn’t even needed if I’m honest as judge just ordered lots of testing so barrister didn’t really have much to do. The second one wasn’t very good at all! But I also think that is because mt exs barrister was so bloody good! Very very good! Very aggressive and would not budge from what her client wanted. In the final hearing I went bells and whistles as I was expecting the same pit bull she had for final hearing but she didn’t. This went in my favour and lead to a consent order.

No, no S7 was ordered by judge. Just the alcohol and mental health testing. Which I passed with ease first time round and within time frame. Cafcass closed reports and wasn’t involved at all since the initial phonecall, level 1, level 2 checks and then closed the case. Judge didn’t ask for them for anything else.

This did lead to a part 25 against me but again judge stuck to testing results as evidence to counter act what she was claiming about me.

My ex also didn’t attach one piece of evidence to the C1A or part 25

 

[KG70]

Yes, I had 3 different ones for each hearing. For the final hearing I went all out and used one that @Ash recommended after scrolling legal 500 he was fantastic! Before that I used recommended barristers via my solicitor. Yes a 3rd of the price but this was reflective in quality/experience etc. the first one wasn’t even needed if I’m honest as judge just ordered lots of testing so barrister didn’t really have much to do. The second one wasn’t very good at all! But I also think that is because mt exs barrister was so bloody good! Very very good! Very aggressive and would not budge from what her client wanted. In the final hearing I went bells and whistles as I was expecting the same pit bull she had for final hearing but she didn’t. This went in my favour and lead to a consent order.

No, no S7 was ordered by judge. Just the alcohol and mental health testing. Which I passed with ease first time round and within time frame. Cafcass closed reports and wasn’t involved at all since the initial phonecall, level 1, level 2 checks and then closed the case. Judge didn’t ask for them for anything else.

This did lead to a part 25 against me but again judge stuck to testing results as evidence to counter act what she was claiming about me.

My ex also didn’t attach one piece of evidence to the C1A or part 25

Sounds like you had a good judge. I had a legal advisor at my FHDRA who just ordered an S7 report (taking 6 months+) on the basis of the Cafcass woman in court speaking to my ex for 25 mins. Cafcass initial call with both of us resulted in no safeguarding issues and closed case.

The take out from your story apart from have a good judge is have a fantastic barrister who is better than the ex's one. Well there are many variables there, mainly for most of us being able to afford one.

Yours is a positive outcome for sure. Well done on getting what is right.

 

[Richie1989]

Sounds like you had a good judge. I had a legal advisor at my FHDRA who just ordered an S7 report (taking 6 months+) on the basis of the Cafcass woman in court speaking to my ex for 25 mins. Cafcass initial call with both of us resulted in no safeguarding issues and closed case.

The take out from your story apart from have a good judge is have a fantastic barrister who is better than the ex's one. Well there are many variables there, mainly for most of us being able to afford one.

Yours is a positive outcome for sure. Well done on getting what is right.

I had 3 different judges for my 3 different hearings as well as 3 different barristers.

The judge at final hearing didn’t have to do anything as it was a consent order. My ex broke. My barrister absolutely made the difference.

I agree affordability is something not everybody can do and I understand that and everybody’s situation is different and different variables contributing to the outcome.

I do think lick is an element as well but I also believe you can help influence that look with key decisions, behaviour and previous behaviour

 

[KG70]

I had 3 different judges for my 3 different hearings as well as 3 different barristers.

The judge at final hearing didn’t have to do anything as it was a consent order. My ex broke. My barrister absolutely made the difference.

I agree affordability is something not everybody can do and I understand that and everybody’s situation is different and different variables contributing to the outcome.

I do think lick is an element as well but I also believe you can help influence that look with key decisions, behaviour and previous behaviour

Judges tend to be better than legal advisors though. Yes definitely an element of luck. Where you live determines how quick your case is sorted.
Good that your ex broke, mine shows no sign of doing so.

Was your final hearing Barrister the gentleman who was also a Deputy District Judge? I remember reading this in a previous post.

Does it help if the Barrister is also a DDJ? You mentioned the ex's barrister was a monster and one of yours was a shrinking violet!
When I have had a quick consultation with a couple of Barristers they have said they are not the aggressive types but rather use gentle persuasion.

 

[Richie1989]

Absolutely! Yes luckily I didn’t get magistrates so their deck on making seemed to be done with more concoction and without hesitation or relying on external bodies as much.

Yes, my barrister was the youngest black district judge in UK history so he was very well respected for obvious reasons. He wasn’t aggressive at all he was fair and very astute with his decision making and strategy.

The judge my ex used is notoriously a pit bull. I’m not saying that influenced the final hearing or the outcome but definitely meant there was no budge during interim period which was disappointing. I don’t think aggressive is the best approach at all but it helps the mother when trying to preserve the current status quo. She was very good aggressive in approach and yes my judge seen through it but again my time with daughter didn’t change much and it was my urgent order hearing. She did extremely well for her client yet mine being less aggressive at that hearing just got crushed and I felt she didn’t use the urgent hearing to my favour.
Like I say though it didn’t have any bearing on the final hearing or outcome at all. It was just deflating for me

 

[Conan]

Notified by my barrister today. His order has been accepted by the Judge and the ex Barrister's draft order rejected, 2 weeks after the hearing. No I can move forward with the ISW to see my children again weekly. What awful tactics and damage being caused all the time. Fingers cross that all goes well with being observed during contact with the ISW. why do they do all of this?

 

[Richie1989]

Mate, power to you! Massive step in right direction. Congrats on your positive news. We will never know why they do this but I found some comfort in reading about NPD, parental enmeshment (in my situation), parallel parenting so I was prepped on how to deal with my ex moving forward. All the best with the ISW and your little one. Keep fighting brother

 

[Ash]

Notified by my barrister today. His order has been accepted by the Judge and the ex Barrister's draft order rejected, 2 weeks after the hearing. No I can move forward with the ISW to see my children again weekly. What awful tactics and damage being caused all the time. Fingers cross that all goes well with being observed during contact with the ISW. why do they do all of this?

Glad to hear it That is one big advantage of using a barrister and having them write up the order - they are usually accepted. I've not heard of the other side's barrister objecting to wording before. Solicitors yes. Really pleased it's worked out for you.