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Final Hearing - Advice on presenting arrangement

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smithsmith

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I have my final hearing coming up and I have about two weeks to submit my position statement. There are no safeguarding concerns and no accusations (beyond me being an inferior parent and that child is happiest with mum etc etc).

We actually had a morning in court with the judge who will be presiding over the final hearing (ex tried to change final hearing date). He pulled a face (literally) at my suggestion of 2255 and said he's barely seen that in his 20 years but I really think it's the way I explained it, and I've had advice since that it's purely because they are always seen to reject the notion of things like "50/50" as the child is "not a piece of property to be split down the middle." 2 days with each parent Monday to Thursday, and alternate weekends Friday pick to Monday drop off would have been a far better way to explain it.

The crux of my argument is that my son was used to around 50/50 time with me and then his mother reduced my time when I got a serious girlfriend.

The only issue I see with 2255 is I don't actually think my son likes to go that long without seeing either parent. We are currently trialing something at her suggestion which is effectively (monday to sunday overnights, time with dad in orange)
1-1-2-2,
1-2-4.

This is just shit for me and my son, frankly. He goes more time without seeing me and we've gained the grand total of 6 hours over the two weeks from she was insisting on before.

A friend of mine just managed to settle in mediation and his schedule means they each get two overnights monday -thursday, and alternate weekends friday pick up to monday drop off. Whomever had him on the weekend, the other parent has the child mon/tues.

So - 2-2-3,2-2-3.

I think this is brilliant. Child gets an equal amount with each parent and never has to go more than 3 nights without seeing the other parent.

My question is does this seem like something the courts are likely to approve? It's a two week rotation that I think my son would quickly get used to but it does change every week. I am absolutely not bothered about the time being split 50/50 down the middle. For instance I'd be happy to drop him back on sunday evenings on my weekend for a quick solution for everyone.

My initial instinct is that the schedule should be the same each week but that's so hard to do without doing 2255 which I'm just not convinced of right now. I'm just looking for some guidance with typical orders the courts like to approve. Just to reiterate there are no safeguarding concerns and for the most part the judge was confused why we can't sort it out when we seem to co parent effectively and still do things together with our son. Considering how much the Judge didn't like the way I presented the arrangement in numbers, is there a better way to present these in my position statement?
 
smithsmith said:
I have my final hearing coming up and I have about two weeks to submit my position statement. There are no safeguarding concerns and no accusations (beyond me being an inferior parent and that child is happiest with mum etc etc).

We actually had a morning in court with the judge who will be presiding over the final hearing (ex tried to change final hearing date). He pulled a face (literally) at my suggestion of 2255 and said he's barely seen that in his 20 years but I really think it's the way I explained it, and I've had advice since that it's purely because they are always seen to reject the notion of things like "50/50" as the child is "not a piece of property to be split down the middle." 2 days with each parent Monday to Thursday, and alternate weekends Friday pick to Monday drop off would have been a far better way to explain it.

The crux of my argument is that my son was used to around 50/50 time with me and then his mother reduced my time when I got a serious girlfriend.

The only issue I see with 2255 is I don't actually think my son likes to go that long without seeing either parent. We are currently trialing something at her suggestion which is effectively (monday to sunday overnights, time with dad in orange)
1-1-2-2,
1-2-4.

This is just shit for me and my son, frankly. He goes more time without seeing me and we've gained the grand total of 6 hours over the two weeks from she was insisting on before.

A friend of mine just managed to settle in mediation and his schedule means they each get two overnights monday -thursday, and alternate weekends friday pick up to monday drop off. Whomever had him on the weekend, the other parent has the child mon/tues.

So - 2-2-3,2-2-3.

I think this is brilliant. Child gets an equal amount with each parent and never has to go more than 3 nights without seeing the other parent.

My question is does this seem like something the courts are likely to approve? It's a two week rotation that I think my son would quickly get used to but it does change every week. I am absolutely not bothered about the time being split 50/50 down the middle. For instance I'd be happy to drop him back on sunday evenings on my weekend for a quick solution for everyone.

My initial instinct is that the schedule should be the same each week but that's so hard to do without doing 2255 which I'm just not convinced of right now. I'm just looking for some guidance with typical orders the courts like to approve. Just to reiterate there are no safeguarding concerns and for the most part the judge was confused why we can't sort it out when we seem to co parent effectively and still do things together with our son. Considering how much the Judge didn't like the way I presented the arrangement in numbers, is there a better way to present these in my position statement?
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Has a judge been named for the final hearing? It could likely be a different judge.

2-2-5-5 and 2-2-3,2-2-3 are routine splits as I understand it. There's not really any way to put bells and whistles on it, it is what it is and if he's been in the seat for twenty years he's very familiar with both.

In your case the 2-2-3,2-2-3 seems right doesn't it.

The mother seems to have come up with a solution that enables her to have an extra three days.
 
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Thanks for the reply. It is going to be the same judge.

Yeah this trial has been horrible, and alienates me even more.
 
smithsmith said:
Thanks for the reply. It is going to be the same judge.

Yeah this trial has been horrible, and alienates me even more.
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Will you be represented on the final hearing it could be money well spent to secure the 5050 in the light of this gurning judge.
 
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No neither of us has legal representation. It's not really an option financially.

The judge actually seemed quite fair and ready to listen - I just need to work out how to best represent the plan.
 
How old is your son? The current single nights aren't good for him - he'll be all over the place back and forth for single nights.

2-2-3-2-2-3 is an accepted schedule - for younger children. Once they get to 5 or 6 - that is too many changeovers really and 2-2-5-5 is better.

If you're wanting to present it in words, in your position statement, you could just set it out as a draft order - everything you want in a final order.

Eg

Child lives with both parents

During Term Time:

Week 1 Friday from school to Monday morning school drop off with Father, Monday from school to Wednesday school drop off with Mother, Wednesday from school to Friday school drop off with Father.

Week 2 Friday from school to Monday morning school drop off with Mother, Monday from school to Wednesday school drop off with Father, Wednesday from school to Friday school drop off with Mother.

With this fortnightly schedule repeating during term time

(That is the 2-2-3-2-2-3).

Until child is 7 years old and then

Week 1 Friday from school to Wednesday morning school drop off with Father, Wednesday from school to Monday morning school drop off with Mother.

Week 2 Monday from school until Wednesday morning school drop off with Father, Wednesday from school until Friday morning school drop off with Mother,

(That is 2-2-5-5).

The "standard" a court would order with a Dad would be every other week-end and one midweek overnight. So if you're happy to accept 5 nights a fortnight, (and ask for it to be "lives with both parents"). Then you could just have every other week-end Friday to Monday morning (3 nights) and one midweek overnight each week.

Having said that, if it's, say, every Wednesday as the midweek overnight then you get a "short week" and a "long week". ie you see the child the wednesday night after your week-end, but then you go another 6 nights without seeing them.

What I had for midweek nights was alternate Mondays and Thursdays. So after your week-end you have the Thursday night, and after her week-end you have the Monday night - then on the Friday your week-end again. This means a gap of only 3 or 4 days maximum. But - the courts wouldn't normally order alternate midweek nights - that would need to be by agreement.

It's possible that if you accept less than 50/50, your ex might agree to alternate midweek nights (ie alternate Mondays and Thursdays).

I agree that it would be well worth having a barrister for your final hearing, because they might be able to thrash out everything by agreement during negotiations at court (which can go on for a long time) before you get to see the Judge.

If it's all agreed at court - and you'll get advice from the barrister as well - then the Judge doesn't get to decide. If you don't reach agreement, what is likely to happen is the Judge (if it's the same one) will say child lives with Mother and spends time with Father every other week-end and one midweek night. And you might just get 4 nights a fortnight with return on the Sunday night of your week-end.

1-1-2-2,
1-2-4.
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This only adds up to 13 nights :unsure:
 
I think I would be confused by 1-1-2-2, 1-2-4 as well lol.

What night of the week does that start on? Monday?

So is it Mon ex, Tues, you, Wed Thurs ex, Fri Sat you (returning Sunday evening), Sun ex, Mon Tues you, Wed to Monday ex?

How many nights a fortnight are you getting with this current schedule of hers?
 
My child is 8 years old. I agree 2255 is the most logical but the judge didn't like it; however I think I can just explain it better. The same two nights in the week each, and alternate weekends friday to monday.

It's useful to hear the court wouldn't order different weeknights; I've tried and tried to get her to agree to the extra weeknight but it just isn't happening. I think I'm going to present it to her in our final mediation and hope for the best.

This only adds up to 13 nights :unsure:
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Sorry, back to hers on a Sunday. So, 1-1-2-2-1 😩
Currently this amounts to 5 overnights in a two week period. However, now I'm the only one that goes 5 nights without seeing him, while it's only ever 2 for her and I truly don't believe this is a healthy balance for our son.

I'm really not bothered about the Sunday night. I am equal part of my son's life and have been since I managed to move closer to her when he had just turned 3 (used to see him twice a week before). I want time to effectively parent; I do a lot with him like extra maths, piano & guitar lessons. My side of the family all live 200 miles away and there needs to be times they can visit during the week and get quality time with him.

I feel like voluntarily giving up the Sunday night appeases the judge's potential prejudice against 50/50. I also have screenshots that prove this all started because I got a girlfriend and that I used to have him more, this recent restriction is the disruption the norm. (I'm also aware not to include reams and reams of screenshots)

We aren't cross examining and this is all based on submissions with half an hour to present my case in court. I am really trying to see that as a positive because there's not reason for the care not to be shared.
 
Ok. So what did it used to be before she reduced it? Yes at 8 I think 2-2-3-2-2-3 is too many changeovers for the child. That is the argument that will be used against you if wanting 50/50. They'll say child would have more stability with more time with one parent and just regular time with the other and less changeovers. Which is why 2-2-5-5 is a good argument - more stability - less changeovers.

I'm not sure the Judge would want you to give up Sunday nights to be honest. Courts are often happy to have a full 3 night week-end. Because it allows more scope at week-ends (eg if you go away you don't have to rush back for a deadline on Sunday night). Also it allows seamless transitions to and from school on Friday and Monday morning. I think they are more concerned with the midweek nights. ie the "care time".

I think it's your ex who wants him back Sunday nights.

It might help to understand how the courts look at division of time. They see week-ends and holidays as "quality time" and midweek term time as "care time". Quality time is usually 50/50 (an alternate week-end each and half the holidays each). So it comes down to the split of care time midweek.

What your ex is basically doing then is only "allowing" 5 nights a fortnight with you with the current schedule.

If you have further mediation you could say to her maybe you would accept 5 nights a fortnight if it was every other week-end Friday to Monday morning, and alternate Monday and Thursday nights - so there isn't too long a gap away from you.

Although I know it's frustrating only having single overnights midweek. But it's not so bad when terms are only 6 weeks long and you get half the holidays :-)

Do you know if it's going to be the same Judge?

Alternatively you could try for 6 nights a fortnight - slightly under 50/50.

I think the danger with agreeing to drop the Sunday night, is - you might not get that extra night midweek instead - because that's part of the "care time" bit. What you want is equality and that's understandable - and you want back what you want before. She clearly feels threatened by you having a girlfriend (a stepmum on the scene) so wants to assert her right as the "main parent" by the sound of it. I think it's common for Mothers to feel threatened by another woman involved wiht their child - but that suggests she has insecurities.

I would go to the next mediation with a few options to discuss. How about

Option 1

6 nights a fortnight

Every other week-end with each parent, Friday to Monday morning. Then Thursday night with you the week after your week-end, and Monday and Tuesday nights with you the week after her week-end. That would be (starting on the Friday of your week-end) 3-3-1-3-2-2.

I don't think she'll accept that because then she never gets more than 3 nights and she clearly wants more than 3 consecutive nights (and doesn't care whether you do or not).

Option 2

5 nights a fortnight

Every other week-end with each parent, Friday to Monday morning. Then alternate Mondays and Thursdays with you (the Thursday being the week after your week-end and the Monday being the week after her week-end). That would be (starting on your friday again) 3-3-1-3-1-3

She probably won't want that either because she still only gets 3 consecutive nights. She is being selfish and not thinking about the routine for your son but about getting the most nights in a row she can.

If the court ordered every other week-end (3 nights) and every Wednesday night with you (they usually decide on Wednesday unless agreed otherwise), then you still have 5 nights a fortnight, but she gets 6 consecutive nights - which is good for her but not for you and your son. Because that would be 3-2-1-6-1-1. I don't think that's good as too many single overnights. But it's likely what a court would order if you don't agree - or they'd do the same but without the Sunday nights. So then it would be 2-3-1-6-1-1 which is even worse.

I think what your ex wants is - at least 4 consecutive nights with her and no Sunday nights with you. Her fear, presumably, is if you have more than a night or two, your son might get too attached to your partner.


Anyway you are already "trialling" 5 nights a fortnight (on her terms) so why should it be less than that?

I'd suggest to her that you're happy to accept 5 nights a fortnight providing it is every other week-end Friday to Monday and alternate Monday and thursday nights. So your son sees you regularly and has a stable routine. ie 3-3-1-3-1-3. And if she agrees to that you can put it in a consent order now.

Unless you really want to try and get the 50/50 back then argue for that in your statement for final hearing. You'll have a much better chance of getting it if you have a barrister I think.
 
A barrister would attempt to negotiate agreements for a consent order. However, if your ex isn't represented, he wouldn't have another lawyer to thrash things out with as part of negotiations - he would have to negotiate directly with your ex - and she might just refuse if she's not represented.

Aside from that a Barrister could persuade the Judge into a bit more than the ex is offering and put things in a way that helps the Judge do a bit more of what you want.

If it says an hour, it'll be a half day hearing. They allow time for negotiations before going before the Judge.

Barristers only work in full or half days anyway. You'd be talking in the region of 2k for a half day for a good barrister.

A good starting point at the final hearing is that you are already getting 5 nights a fortnight and you could try for 6, with a barrister, and a better schedule.

Do you have to submit statements before the next mediation? Or have statements already been submitted? I was just thinking if ex sees your statement and arguments for 50/50 she might be more inclined to agree to a better schedule for 5 nights a fortnight - or even 6. Rather than risk you getting 50/50 at the final hearing. And to be honest I don't see why you shouldn't have 50/50 - except that your last Judge seemed a bit anti.

Do you know if it will be the same Judge?
 
It will be the same judge definitely.

Ex does indeed know what I'm going for but is emboldened by Judge's face-pulling at 2255.

We have mediation a few days before we submit our final position statement. I really am willing to offer less than 50/50 and an arrangement where son doesn't have to go more than a few days without seeing either parent so I just hope she sees sense.
 
I think I remember now that you had a Judge who was dismissive about 2-2-5-5 and it's the same Judge. So are you only asked to submit position statements for final hearing, not witness statements with evidence? I'll need to read back on your thread. Sorry just had so many people with different situations :-)
 
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