Fact finding case management questions

[hopingforthebest78]

Hi there,
I am wondering if anyone had Fact finding hearing and not been cross examined.I had DRA and we are both LIP.
I have received order and it states that each parent will have 15 minutes to give testimony for each allegations.The court will prepare the bundle.The allegations have been cut down but its not reflected in order. Is this a new format of Fact finding hearings because of both of us being LIP?I am concerned that I won't get a chance to ask questions or at least forward questions to magistrates/judges.I have send email to court on 7 February and still waiting to clarify this.I spoke to direct access barrister who thinks its not managed properly and I should apply for order to set aside but then this would delay this even further and I haven't seen my daughter for 18 months now.

I would appreciate some guidance or help ,happy to PM order for better clarification.

Many thanks

 

[mva]

Do any of the fact finding allegations involved DV or abuse. ? This can change how cross examination is handled by the judge

 

[hopingforthebest78]

Do any of the fact finding allegations involved DV or abuse. ? This can change how cross examination is handled by the judge

Standard coercive ,psychological ,controlling abuse ,although she tried to add financial and one case of physical form ten years and they told her to only focus on last 5 years so no physical and financial.All hearings were magistrate whose standards were pretty low and looks like it will be also heard in front of magistrates.

 

[Ash]

Despite the additional delay, I would take the barrister's advice - and ask for the case to be heard by a District Judge. It's hard to have more delay but - better than losing in one fell swoop because of one bad hearing (advice I should have given myself previously!). I didn't adjourn a hearing when there'd been a bereavement due to delay and should have - it didn't go well.

 

[Ash]

I don't quite understand the bit that says allegations have been cut down but not reflected in the order. If the allegations have been cut down that could be a good thing - depending on what they are. Presumably you can attach evidence to your responses? I am not an expert on fact finds so will leave others to answer but see what the barrister suggests as well.

 

[hopingforthebest78]

I don't quite understand the bit that says allegations have been cut down but not reflected in the order. If the allegations have been cut down that could be a good thing - depending on what they are. Presumably you can attach evidence to your responses? I am not an expert on fact finds so will leave others to answer but see what the barrister suggests as well.

So at DRA hearing in January magistrates looked at her Scott schedule and she had 6 allegations and loads of si allegations under main allegations. So they said they will only hear 4 allegations (and specifically noted which subheadings form those). I then waited a month to recieve the order (numerous emails and phonecalls to court) .The order states that for each allegation there is 15 minutes to give testimony (max 90 minutes ) as they state 6 allegations. They should only state 4 allegations. I emailed the court ti clarify and explained that this has been cut down and why does order has 6 and not 4 allegations. Direct acces barrister said they would have bites form previous hearing.
I was also advised I could apply to have it heard at Tier2 but still waiting for the explanation of this order as it’s under case management and by law they have to answer the questions.
When I hear back and not satisfied ,I can always set the order aside as heating is at the end of May.
I feel like they are not taking this seriously because we are both LIP to be honest.

 

[hopingforthebest78]

Despite the additional delay, I would take the barrister's advice - and ask for the case to be heard by a District Judge. It's hard to have more delay but - better than losing in one fell swoop because of one bad hearing (advice I should have given myself previously!). I didn't adjourn a hearing when there'd been a bereavement due to delay and should have - it didn't go well.

Yes I am contemplating this, I honestly can’t stand Magistrates -legal advisor at DRA was so rude-I tried to ask a question and she cut me off few times. She looked annoyed and bored. Yo be fair she was rude to ex too but I felt they rushed the hearing and didn’t really explain next steps. I asked them if I should supply bundle,they said no-they will prepare.I doubt this will happen. Oh well.,,

 

[Ash]

Maybe the barrister could advise you how to write to the court to ask for the hearing to be adjourned and for a District Judge. I think there is a possibility though that they may say no - not adjourning it.

 

[Mike2017]

There is an official complaints process around family court, just Google it and file a complaint but it has to be well written and factual why you have a complaint (sounds like you have grounds too). I’ve had 6 hearings and never once has court prepared a bundle, they don’t know the history’s or your position so I can’t see how that’s feasible. Knowing magistrates like I do they won’t handle it correctly, always get a judge but if you get a judge you best have your stuff together or you’ll get crucified.

Re your allegations whether it’s 4 or 6 prepare for them all then you’re covered. Make sure you have evidence with you to support your words if you have it, I’d also prepare a bundle so you look proactive and if the court flop (they lost my statements before my final hearing) then you’re covered and can supply them with it.

I’d say though if these allegations are serious get a varrister, if your ex is self repping any varrister will be better than her unless she’s highly litigant, only you’ll know what you’re up against.

 

[Ash]

Good advice above about getting prepared and doing your own bundle. Not sure I'd complain to the court at this stage - it can help to keep them onside (they can be very helpful - but as Mike says - not do things).

I'd agree with getting a barrister for the fact find - it could go either way. Especially with Magistrates. I actually don't think Magistrates should be doing fact finds - these are major life changing results from them.

 

[Mike2017]

I had 6 hearing now and only once hit a judge, I had a really good set of majestrates once but the others were shocking n it’s like they read from the sane script.

I found my complaint as it was justified got my case bumped up the list, as long as your factual the clerks will try help and there are so many different magistrates per court you’ll probably get different ones. If things don’t go well make sure everything is recorded in writing so you have back up. I believe you can also apply for the minutes of the hearing as they have a clerk that types every word so maybe there’s an option if you believe Information has been changed.

 

[mva]

Standard coercive ,psychological ,controlling abuse ,although she tried to add financial and one case of physical form ten years and they told her to only focus on last 5 years so no physical and financial.All hearings were magistrate whose standards were pretty low and looks like it will be also heard

Yes I am contemplating this, I honestly can’t stand Magistrates -legal advisor at DRA was so rude-I tried to ask a question and she cut me off few times. She looked annoyed and bored. Yo be fair she was rude to ex too but I felt they rushed the hearing and didn’t really explain next steps. I asked them if I should supply bundle,they said no-they will prepare.I doubt this will happen. Oh well.,,

I’d definitely get a barrister for fact finding . I was LIP at my FF & lost. It
Had massive implications going forward

 

[Ash]

I’d definitely get a barrister for fact finding . I was LIP at my FF & lost. It
Had massive implications going forward

I have heard this kind of thing before. Innocent Dads found guilty and indirect contact only. I remember one distraught guy who was told if he admitted the allegations and went on a dv course he could have time with the kids. If he didn't admit it he couldn't. He said he couldn't bring himself to say it was true when it wasn't. Everyone advised - you just have to jump through the hoops to see your kids.

I wouldn't want to be an LIP at a fact find - the purpose of them is very black and white - decide if the allegations are true or not - on the basis of "probability" and who the Judge (or Magistrates) believes. Evidence helps of course but you're usually up against an ex with no evidence who might sound convincing. Without much evidence to prove she's lying. I have not heard of cross examination at fact finds before - it's usually submissions isn't it? It could be deemed inappropriate in case the "victim" is actually a victim.

As I understand it the allegations and your responses are submitted via the Scott schedule - court will have seen them before the hearing and have them to hand and you're basically questioned and putting your case as in any hearing. A barrister could win it for you.

 

[Mike2017]

I have heard this kind of thing before. Innocent Dads found guilty and indirect contact only. I remember one distraught guy who was told if he admitted the allegations and went on a dv course he could have time with the kids. If he didn't admit it he couldn't. He said he couldn't bring himself to say it was true when it wasn't. Everyone advised - you just have to jump through the hoops to see your kids.

I wouldn't want to be an LIP at a fact find - the purpose of them is very black and white - decide if the allegations are true or not - on the basis of "probability" and who the Judge (or Magistrates) believes. Evidence helps of course but you're usually up against an ex with no evidence who might sound convincing. Without much evidence to prove she's lying. I have not heard of cross examination at fact finds before - it's usually submissions isn't it? It could be deemed inappropriate in case the "victim" is actually a victim.

As I understand it the allegations and your responses are submitted via the Scott schedule - court will have seen them before the hearing and have them to hand and you're basically questioned and putting your case as in any hearing. A barrister could win it for you.

That saying “basis of probability” is a cracking one if your ex is being a nightmare and you’ve hot evidence, then in future you use this saying whether you have evidence or not and they can’t really look away. It’s also how social workers work as partner deals with child safeguarding. Fact finds can be straight forward depending on allegations and you can clearly see if it’s going to a contested final hearing. It has to if the accusations are provable. If they did close the case on that you’d have huge grounds for appeal and then they’d have to watch themselves but if that happened lawyer up and get them quoting case law as there’s tons of it. I had that used against me and she won that battle. They won’t win the war though and that’s why we keep fighting.

 

[Mike2017]

I had 6 hearing now and only once hit a judge, I had a really good set of majestrates once but the others were shocking n it’s like they read from the sane script.

I found my complaint as it was justified got my case bumped up the list, as long as your factual the clerks will try help and there are so many different magistrates per court you’ll probably get different ones. If things don’t go well make sure everything is recorded in writing so you have back up. I believe you can also apply for the minutes of the hearing as they have a clerk that types every word so maybe there’s an option if you believe Information has been changed.

That’s hot a judge not hit a judge, fat fingers! It wasn’t a froident slip

 

[hopingforthebest78]

There is an official complaints process around family court, just Google it and file a complaint but it has to be well written and factual why you have a complaint (sounds like you have grounds too). I’ve had 6 hearings and never once has court prepared a bundle, they don’t know the history’s or your position so I can’t see how that’s feasible. Knowing magistrates like I do they won’t handle it correctly, always get a judge but if you get a judge you best have your stuff together or you’ll get crucified.

Re your allegations whether it’s 4 or 6 prepare for them all then you’re covered. Make sure you have evidence with you to support your words if you have it, I’d also prepare a bundle so you look proactive and if the court flop (they lost my statements before my final hearing) then you’re covered and can supply them with it.

I’d say though if these allegations are serious get a varrister, if your ex is self repping any varrister will be better than her unless she’s highly litigant, only you’ll know what you’re up against.

Yes I am still deciding whether to complain or apply to set the order aside.I had another free phonecall with solicitor who said I can apply to have the hearing with Tier2 and need to provide some case law. This has been mainly post separation “abuse”.
Still waiting for legal advice to respond to my questions. I agree Fact finding shouldn’t be heard by magistrates- they just have no idea about false allegations and don’t think they can read between lines and get a bigger picture.
From what I understand from other forums, I need to try to explain my truth (with evidence) and not bash my ex too much. Definitely need a barrister to question her as I wouldn’t be allowed anyway. My ex wrote a convincing statement and Scott schedule probably with a help of McKenzie. And it’s possible she will also have barrister at the hearing.

I will keep you all posted with developments since still waiting for replies.

 

[hopingforthebest78]

That saying “basis of probability” is a cracking one if your ex is being a nightmare and you’ve hot evidence, then in future you use this saying whether you have evidence or not and they can’t really look away. It’s also how social workers work as partner deals with child safeguarding. Fact finds can be straight forward depending on allegations and you can clearly see if it’s going to a contested final hearing. It has to if the accusations are provable. If they did close the case on that you’d have huge grounds for appeal and then they’d have to watch themselves but if that happened lawyer up and get them quoting case law as there’s tons of it. I had that used against me and she won that battle. They won’t win the war though and that’s why we keep fighting.

In my case it’s not guaranteed because she claims my daughter is scared after witnessing argument. My daughter is 12. It’s been blown out of proportion -GP/CAMhS counselling etc.
she claims she doesn’t want to see me etc. daughter doesn't respond to my messages ,in the beginning sporadically. I obviously became upset and felt like she was trying to stop daughter seeing me and used this as excuse so made claims of alienation. She turned this around now and is claiming I am not cooperating etc. so some allegations are to do with my daughter. She also claims she had to have a counselling following our split -trauma therapy.
It’s hard to know which way it will go,I have waited now for a year since I started C79 and looks like it will take some more time ,not sure what will happen because my daughter is turning 13 in May. Even if I admitted to everything and did DAPP don’t know how long this will all take,so my only hope is that this Fact finding will go my way and her evidence is weak and they just don’t take her word for it.

 

[Ash]

That saying “basis of probability” is a cracking one if your ex is being a nightmare and you’ve hot evidence, then in future you use this saying whether you have evidence or not and they can’t really look away. It’s also how social workers work as partner deals with child safeguarding. Fact finds can be straight forward depending on allegations and you can clearly see if it’s going to a contested final hearing. It has to if the accusations are provable. If they did close the case on that you’d have huge grounds for appeal and then they’d have to watch themselves but if that happened lawyer up and get them quoting case law as there’s tons of it. I had that used against me and she won that battle. They won’t win the war though and that’s why we keep fighting.

That’s hot a judge not hit a judge, fat fingers! It wasn’t a froident slip

Lol - I did wonder about that but got the meaning. As in hit them with facts.

Thing is though - some fact finds also become a final hearing - a Judge can decide that on the day. I think fact finds are very tricky from all the feedback I've seen. It can either be helpful (ie if found for you she can't make those allegations again at future times - they are dismissed) or it can leave you being found to have done something that isn't true and a Judge deciding you shouldn't see your children. So I agree some help is needed for a fact find.

It is so wrong that falsely accused Dads have to find money to pay for representation.

 

[Ash]

Yes I am still deciding whether to complain or apply to set the order aside.I had another free phonecall with solicitor who said I can apply to have the hearing with Tier2 and need to provide some case law. This has been mainly post separation “abuse”.
Still waiting for legal advice to respond to my questions. I agree Fact finding shouldn’t be heard by magistrates- they just have no idea about false allegations and don’t think they can read between lines and get a bigger picture.
From what I understand from other forums, I need to try to explain my truth (with evidence) and not bash my ex too much. Definitely need a barrister to question her as I wouldn’t be allowed anyway. My ex wrote a convincing statement and Scott schedule probably with a help of McKenzie. And it’s possible she will also have barrister at the hearing.

I will keep you all posted with developments since still waiting for replies.

In my case it’s not guaranteed because she claims my daughter is scared after witnessing argument. My daughter is 12. It’s been blown out of proportion -GP/CAMhS counselling etc.
she claims she doesn’t want to see me etc. daughter doesn't respond to my messages ,in the beginning sporadically. I obviously became upset and felt like she was trying to stop daughter seeing me and used this as excuse so made claims of alienation. She turned this around now and is claiming I am not cooperating etc. so some allegations are to do with my daughter. She also claims she had to have a counselling following our split -trauma therapy.
It’s hard to know which way it will go,I have waited now for a year since I started C79 and looks like it will take some more time ,not sure what will happen because my daughter is turning 13 in May. Even if I admitted to everything and did DAPP don’t know how long this will all take,so my only hope is that this Fact finding will go my way and her evidence is weak and they just don’t take her word for it.

Yes and I think another thing a Barrister can do is represent your side to the Judge expertly and use case law as mentioned above. A barrister would come across better re the alienation claim, than you personally. It's something else that's not right with the system. That when self repping it looks like you personally are attacking the ex. Whereas when a Barrister does it - they are an expert and can say more than you can. As an example, my Barrister absolutely slated my ex and her behaviour in one position statement and the Judge agreed with him. If I had done that it would have looked like mud slinging.

Yes keep us posted and good luck. A year is a long time, but important to get things right. If the solicitor says you can ask for a higher tier quoting case law then I think that is the thing to do. But I would start preparing just in case it goes ahead (in case the court declines to change it).

 

[mva]

Parental Alienation is very hard to prove. Key thing is not to allow any facts to go against you. From my awful experience the judge accepted one allegation and therefore snow ball effect to accept the other 4. I was LIP and could straight away tell the judge believed exes narrative. Therefore on the back foot throughout the 3 day hearing. The end outcome was that I have been seeing my sons supervised for 2 years. This is worse than not seeing them tbh as it’s totally unnatural and leaves you in limbo. I really would advise getting a barrister for fact finding.