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Experiences and More Positive Case outcomes - when using a Solicitor

Hackedoff_dad

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I have only been on here for a short time, and have read many threads and posts, what I find concerning here that no one really mentions a solicitor or "the solicitors advice was" etc, I am only just really starting out on my journey with all this, however I have to say that after the Cafcass hearing (outcome) the next step is the court hearings, I have cobbled together a few quid to help with any expenses I might need in terms of legal representation.

I once had a quote for a solicitor to fill in the whole lot for me as a bundle package, it was £900 for them to fill in just the C100 - so I did that myself, then there is Cafcass, not cost me anything for that, as I am told that Legal cannot give any weight to a possible outcome or help in any way at that particular point, I am guessing for the first hearing that it would be useful to know what weight a solicitor is useful at that stage, likewise at the final hearing etc,

Does anyone have any end to end experience of this? naturally a rant about awful money grabbing solicitors is not something I feel would be helpful here, moreover possibly the more successful the outcome by use of legal representation rather that "going it alone" so to speak.

Also what might be useful would be users to share experiences as to the process of not using legal and what the fight feels like, did you win? do you feel that in hindsight having legal representation at key points could have helped and in someway helped for a better outcome or not? Any help here is much appreciated,

Cheers:
 
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Absolutely, the more resources you can put your hands on the better, so that means a solicitor, Barrister Etc.

It's also really important, as you have seen, to understand what they are doing at all points, and do what you can yourself to a) save money and b) understand the process fully.

On top of that, it's key too get representation that understands the family court system fully and can strongly advocate for father (they don;t all do both of these)

Ultimately I think fathers end up here because they are less able to get representation (though I did, all the way) and so are looking for advice about what to do and say, because they do not have access to those things as fully as it may be best to.

Fundamental advice is get representation if you can afford it and vet them to make sure they know what they are doing.
 
Absolutely, the more resources you can put your hands on the better, so that means a solicitor, Barrister Etc.

It's also really important, as you have seen, to understand what they are doing at all points, and do what you can yourself to a) save money and b) understand the process fully.

On top of that, it's key too get representation that understands the family court system fully and can strongly advocate for father (they don;t all do both of these)

Ultimately I think fathers end up here because they are less able to get representation (though I did, all the way) and so are looking for advice about what to do and say, because they do not have access to those things as fully as it may be best to.

Fundamental advice is get representation if you can afford it and vet them to make sure they know what they are doing.
 
Some good advice here, however vetting a solicitor??? really??? way I see it is I am asking them to represent me as I have no idea about family law... that is a concern.. :-(
 
You vet plumbers right? You'd vet an accountant? So you vet your prospective solicitor. Do they have history of fighting and winning custody cases for fathers, are they passionate about fair and equal treatment of parents, that sort of thing. Hiring "AA Family And Law" because they are at the top of the list and have low, low rates is how to not get what you want.
 
Hi Hackedoff. I took a blended approach. I used a solicitor to check through the C100 I drafted, and all other court documents thereafter.

Ultimately, only you know your case like you do which is why I think you could fill out most of the C100. The solicitors should be able to advise on legal terminology, family court speak and make sure that you have not included stuff that would hurt your case and highlight bits that you may have missed.
 
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You vet plumbers right? You'd vet an accountant? So you vet your prospective solicitor. Do they have history of fighting and winning custody cases for fathers, are they passionate about fair and equal treatment of parents, that sort of thing. Hiring "AA Family And Law" because they are at the top of the list and have low, low rates is how to not get what you want.
So did you win? did you get what you wanted out of it for your children?
 
Hi Hackedoff. I took a blended approach. I used a solicitor to check through the C100 I drafted, and all other court documents thereafter.

Ultimately, only you know your case like you do which is why I think you could fill out most of the C100. The solicitors should be able to advise on legal terminology, family court speak and make sure that you have not included stuff that would hurt your case and highlight bits that you may have missed.
So did you win? did you get what you wanted out of it for your children?
 
I lost and won in equal measures. It was a complicated case and I now see that the judge had to manage the impact of what a complete win would have caused for the kids (I think the judge saw that the psycho ex would go into complete melt down, and as the resident parent, that would be very damaging to the kids). In the end, I got a shared care lives with both parents order, but lost the 'specific issues' order I requested in the first instance.

The family court is a system that you need to learn about, understand and work with. It is a broken system that is unfair on non-resident parents. If you rely on legal services, you may end up with a loss without understanding why you lost.

Use this board's collective knowledge and experience to help you. But you have to accept the shortcomings of the family court system and build it into your processes.
 
I lost and won in equal measures. It was a complicated case and I now see that the judge had to manage the impact of what a complete win would have caused for the kids (I think the judge saw that the psycho ex would go into complete melt down, and as the resident parent, that would be very damaging to the kids). In the end, I got a shared care lives with both parents order, but lost the 'specific issues' order I requested in the first instance.

The family court is a system that you need to learn about, understand and work with. It is a broken system that is unfair on non-resident parents. If you rely on legal services, you may end up with a loss without understanding why you lost.

Use this board's collective knowledge and experience to help you. But you have to accept the shortcomings of the family court system and build it into your processes.
So did you use a solicitor? how was that? did it help? did you use one at different parts in your quest? or did you research all the family court system yourself and go it alone?
 
So did you win? did you get what you wanted out of it for your children?
Ultimately, yes. I've got to get around to updating my entry in "Your Story", but yes I now have a 50/50 arrangement and a better relationship with my ex wife than I ever had during our marriage. I nearly died, spent £35K on legal fees, and have been in therapy every week for 5 years as well though so don't read too much into me having a Solicitor and a Barrister...
 
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I very much agree with the "vetting" business. To get straight to the point, if you can afford legal representation, it can help a lot - but only if they are very good and not biased towards Mothers (sadly that is ingrained in many). As in most things in life there are some really bad (and really biased) solicitors out there.

After my initial experiences, and spending thousands and getting nowhere, I used a direct access barrister for later hearings. Barristers are hugely more effective than solicitors generally and can win your case for you. The cost actually works out less overall. It means you do the solicitor paperwork yourself - like submit the application, deal with any correspondence (or ignore any correspondence from the other side!) and rely on the court process and the barrister. A direct access barrister should offer a fixed fee to include an initial consultationa and representation at a hearing.

A solicitor will usually charge an hourly fee and many bills will be run up by pointless letters going backwards and forwards between solicitors, arguing and not achieving anything. When the outcome is to be decided in court anyway.

I has cost me over £30,000 as well. I do have a shared care/lives with both parents order, but not 50/50. My first application to court was an urgent one. My ex had made allegations and prevented me seeing my child permanently (this was after 7 years of co parenting without an order). I had a holiday booked for the week after she did this. The first solicitor I spoke to said - well it's too late for the holiday now - it'll be a slow process applying to court. Lazy and not that interested despite a child's life being involved! Meanwhile the allegations were still hanging around and gaining more mileage (she reported to social services).

So I have also taken a slightly blended approach. On that occasion I went online to Just Answer and consulted a solicitor there (they vary - depends who you get) for the fee of £36! She was absolutely brilliant and said to deal with it robustly to knock the allegations on the head and apply for a specific issues order for the holiday and Child Arrangements at the same time. Which I did. So I got my child back very quickly by means of the holiday being ordered and a CAO on the same day! The Judge took one look at my evidence (texts and emails) to see that the allegations had sprung out of her being angry with me about something and dismissed them on the spot. I got an actual solicitor last minute the night before and the two solicitors spent ages thrashing out agreement so the existing arrangements continued within a CAO. However this was one of my biggest learning experiences and why you very much need to keep your eye on the ball, give INSTRUCTIONS to solicitors and ensure things are done properly. Because I was green - I didn't know exactly what a Child Arrangements Order should say or how things were done.

So we left court having heard the Judge tear my ex off a strip, dismiss all allegations, and were told the order would be "in the post".

What arrived was a useless piece of paper that actually gave my ex sole residency! Which she didn't have before. And that was it apart from - attached to the back of it was the schedule as a list of "agreements". (I later found out at a subsequent hearing that my ex had contacted Cafcass again and they had written the order!).

We queried it with the solicitor who then wouldn't return any calls! Found out that the order wasn't actually enforceable because the arrangements were "recitals" rather than actually ordered.

Once my ex found it wasn't enforceable she prevented my son coming again - not entirely but a lot of disruption, and she was heavily alienating him.

So then followed my big case. I applied to vary the order and asked for shared care to be reinstated (as it had been before the previous order!). That was my second big mistake - through lacking confidence or information from other Dads or good solicitors, I assumed I would only get 5 nights a fortnight for shared care so that is all I asked for. One night a week extra. A new Solicitor I used ran up loads of bills - about £3,000 in two months - doing nothing much at all apart from replying to all the accusatory letters my exes solicitor sent. I had done my own application and used the solicitor for the rest, to save on costs. When it came to the first hearing she wasn't available so sent someone from another office. Who was completely useless. I would have been better off doing it on my own. Worse than useless - she was batting for the other side in the end! I had three of them trying to bully me into backing down and give my ex what she wanted (ie no order!). The Cafcass officer, my exes solicitor and then the solicitor who was supposed to be representing me. I said no. It went to final hearing with mediation ordered meanwhile. I sacked the solicitor, £3,500 worse off.

And then found a website where I got a lot of advice from Dads who had been through the system - many of whom are on here now - which is why this place is invaluable. I asked for recommendations for a Solicitor Barrister team (and had a few!). I switched to a solicitor barrister team with a fixed fee from both for the final hearing. It was then I found I could have/should have asked for 50/50. My ex got even worse and more maverick in the run up to the final hearing and I was harrassed constantly by email - the stress myself, my son and partner were under was off the scale. Massive disruption (even though she was following the interim order). But as the date got closer she became anxious she might lose and wanted to be amicable and do a consent order which her solicitor was pushing hard for (do not fall for this trick! They want you to withdraw the application and then they change their minds!). So I stuck to my guns and it went to final hearing.

Ultimately it was settled by consent (mostly) at the final hearing before it went into the Judge, via Barristers negotiating. I regret that now - I may have got both if it had gone before the Judge. My Barrister got them to agree to shared care/lives with both, but not the extra time. So it remained at four nights a fortnight and half the holidays. Of course my ex didn't want to consent and had no intention of keeping to the order.

Sorry this is not more concise - but like so many things in life - this is a system full of good and bad professionals. The Barrister was very good (although I still regret not going before the Judge and getting the extra time and having the chance of getting 50/50). The Solicitor made mistakes.

And this is where I learned my next lesson - about orders and wording. After the last experienced I took a draft order with me so the wording was clear and correct and no ambiguity. This was used to negotiate with and amended accordingly. It was then left for Solicitors to write up the order after the hearing.

What happened was - my exes solicitor refused to agree the wording. Another £1,600 of solicitors bills arguing over the wording and it was looking like I'd have to go back to court again to get the court to order the wording as agreed at the final hearing. I gave up a couple of things just to get it agreed in the end - phone calls was one. In hindsight that wouldn't have made much difference as my son is too uncomfortable to speak to me on the phone when his Mum is there.

I was back in court about 2 months later with another urgent hearing as my ex decided to move further away - prohibited steps. On this occasion I used the same barrister on a direct access basis (rather than use a solicitor again). He was aware what had happened after final hearing and made a point of ensuring everything was written up on the day and left for sealing. And that is what you want. You don't ask - you don't get.

I've had two further urgent applications - twice for holidays again (despite them being court ordered my ex intended to breach) and both times used the same direct access barrister. Fixed fee for a half day hearing. No Solicitor.

So in conclusion:

For those who can afford it, a good Solicitor Barrister team will get you good results - some work very well in teams and are used to working together - but you need recommendations and to ask around. Like most things, the very good ones are very expensive. So it depends what you're going for as to how much it's worth spending. If you were going for residency with a parental alienation case for example, you need someone very good and experienced in that field.

If it's a first application for child arrangements, then I personally would use a direct access barrister, not a solicitor. Especially if your ex has a solicitor. They will stop any dirty tricks or delays and have the ear of the Judge. And make sure nothing is missed, and more importantly - speak for you - that is their expertise - they are advocates - they know what to say and how to persuade a Judge. And Cafcass seem to be a bit more low key when they are there I've found.

You can get a good direct access barrister for about 2k for a half day hearing. And no other costs apart from the court fee. You can then decide whether to use a solicitor and barrister team for the final hearing so someone can do all the paperwork.

But my tips would be:
 
Whoever represents you, instruct them, don't sit and wait for them to tell you what to do. Complicated as they have the legal knowledge and you want advice. And they will stick to old, lazy habits and see every case the same, unless you're very clear and specific about certain things. Most solicitors are still stuck in the age of "Mum owns child - Dad is a secondary laugh who wants a bit of time". Patronising. There are some good ones, and ones who are good acting for Dads, but IME they are few and far between.

Same goes with Barristers - not so much - they mostly do a good job whoever they are acting for but there are some who are particularly geared towards Mums. You need to read their info and check what cases they've done before.

So if you can afford it, get a good Solicitor Barrister team who work together regularly and can do most of the the work for you, take the pressure off you, with you having some input.

If that's not affordable, then consider using a direct access barrister for both hearings. Or for the first hearing and a team for the second.

When it comes to final hearing, it can be really good to use a solicitor to help write your statement and go through it with you - that's a very important document. You can just do that as a one off if you don't have a solicitor for the whole case. But I think it can help if you hire a solicitor to help with the statement and court bundle, and exchange of documents before the hearing (which is when many dirty tricks go on by the other side if you don't have a solicitor - eg not sending you documents and knowing your evidence without sending you theirs! Gives them an advantage.

At first hearing it is more just about trying to broker an agreement and resolving disputes. Once it gets to final hearing it is adversarial and a legal process that is nothing to do with real life! It's about complying with things like cross examination and correct statement formats.

Cross examination of your ex is where a Barrister comes into their own and can win you the case - along with arguing case law in your favour and submitting a brilliant skeleton argument.

Costs. My first urgent one day hearing and hiring a solicitor cost £1,000 plus the £36 to Just Answer!
My full Child Arrangements application with two hearings cost about £13,000 by the end. £5,000 of that was the Barrister's fee and that bit was worth every penny. £3,500 of that was money down the drain. Plus a few hundred for court ordered mediation and the application fee.

But you're generally looking at £10,000 to get a CAO using a Solicitor and Barrister - maybe £6,000 if you just use a solicitor.

The Solicitor barrister team I wanted to use were unaffordable - 25k for the barrister! Solicitor was about £350 an hour. But I was happy with my 5k barrister (4k plus vat actually).

The reason many Dads self rep is because they have no money - are struggling to afford somewhere to live after separation etc. And some have been hugely successful self repping with assistance from other members on here. My feeling on that is - it takes stamina, confidence and articulacy - and you need to be able to be calm and focused. (Not easy when under stress). I am not good in court and need someone to speak for me - I am quiet and better on paper. So I write my own position statements and they have been well received and got results. But when it comes to a hearing I need someone to speak for me - and an expert knows what to say.

But there are members who would say they would never use a solicitor after bad experiences, yes. And your money is important too. And presumably not a bottomless pit. Get recommendations and do your research.

Final thing. I actually regret not using the 25k barrister! As I am sure I would have had everything sorted better and less returns to court (which ended up costing me more!). For all my Barrister was good he just did not get how ruthless, dishonest and machievellian my ex was - at first. Then he did and he was much better!
 
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My main tip is - make sure they write up the order on the day and leave it for sealing. Ask your representative to do this. If they say they can't then don't use them. It's easy enough, you have a draft order to take (or even attached to your statement). Lawyer takes their laptop with it on - they can amend it there and then - get the Judge to approve it and leave it at the court for sealing. This might be different if it's remote hearings but if a Barrister does the order you know it will be correct and they can override a solicitor who doesn't agree the wording and go straight back to the Judge if there's a problem. They have more clout.
 
totaly agree with your point Ash, having your order sealed on the day is a must. something which i did not know until i too was going through other dads stories before my final hearing and only coming across how important it is when i read another dads case. Barristers have the upper hand on solicitors and are seen as "higher up". if you dont get the order sealed on the day you run the risk of delays and as Ash has said above having to go back to court because wording hasnt been agreed. sometimes dads go into a court hearing just wanting the win but its the little things you also need to remember in your court order or you will be back.. examples below:

1) if you get half holidays it has to be more specific. i literally stated who gets what in the holidays dad first week mum second etc and then pro rata so it switches every year. if you dont get this in detail you could be arguing who gets for example the first week of the summer holidays and in leicester thats a big deal as we break up a week early and holidays are alot cheaper to go away in the first week for us

2) important days like christmas eve and christmas, easter etc ping down times in the order. so hand overs will be at 3pm etc. if you dont get this again it can bite you in the backside especially if the ex wants to be spiteful on a day she knows you have something planned.

3) if your going abroad on holiday i put in my order that passports need to be handed over to the travelling parent a month prior to flying at the very latest. this gives you enough time incase any dirty tricks of "the passport has gone missing" so you have enough time to apply for a new one in that case.

these where my main ones, what i want to emphasis is go into detail in the order where needed with times and dates. get it sealed on the day with no delays.

with my situation i did self represent from submitting my C100 form which is quite straight forward. i self represented at my first hearing. i then instructed a solicitor to prepare my final bundle for my final hearing. again like ash said its important you do your research on the solicitors and keep a very sharp eye on them. they will send emails for jokes at the cost of £25 per email which can be frustrating when you get your itemized bill. for me i stated to them they are not to negotiate on my part they are instructed to do one job which is to prepare my court bundle. My barrister on the day was savage but fantastic and again i was given about 5 recommendations and i researched each one on the internet to see who was the most fitting. i wanted one that was experienced, ruthless and that is exactly what i got from reading reviews to seeing her in action in court.

so definitely do your research on who you get as representation, but also check out sites like this because there is a wealth of information on hear.
 
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