Ex trying to say something is in the court order that isn’t

[KF31]

Wasn’t really sure where to put this, but was wondering if anyone had ever dealt with an ex trying to twist a court order saying something is in the order that isn’t?

Basically when my partner recently went to court with his ex he stated in court he would like to have the children for some of the school holidays. Up to that point he was only given a week with them in the summer hols. Cafcass advised a fairer share of the holidays and his ex agreed to it, but despite this the judge ruled that there would be no changes made to the previous order other than he would now collect the children from school rather than the grandmothers house. So no extra contact in the holidays was put in the order.

Next week is half term and my partner has booked holidays throughout the year in the hope his ex would still agree to him spending time with the children in the holidays. He has been given all his holiday requests except for the days he requested off for next week as they said there are too many employees already off. My partner is still in his probation period so people already had their holidays booked before him.

My partner has explained to his ex that he’s been unable to get time off for this half term but that he has booked time off for other half terms and 2 weeks for the summer holidays and at the time of telling her he was just waiting for confirmation that he could have these days off.
His ex kicked off cause he couldn’t have them this half term and has tried telling him that it’s in the court order that he has the children in the half terms. He’s told her that it’s not in the court order and as much as he’d love to spend half terms with them he has to have holidays approved and the only change made to the order was where he was to collect the children from.

She’s demanded that he has the children for the whole 2 weeks of the Easter holidays to make up for not having them this half term, he’s got time off to spend with them at Easter but he can’t have them the full 2 weeks cause he doesn’t have enough holiday allowance.

We know it’s not in the order and she has no leg to stand on in making demands etc but has anyone else had an ex trying to state something is in the court order when it isn’t and how’s best to deal with it?
When he discussed it with her he was waiting for confirmation from his employer that he could have the dates off that he had booked. Now he’s had confirmation and so he needs to text her to let her know, but we know she will kick off cause he’s not booked the full 2 weeks of Easter off. She tries to phone him a lot to avoid him having it in text message what she’s said but we’re trying to keep everything in messages.

 

[Resolute]

This might be a reverse move, she could turn this into him refusing to take the kids and use that to stop arrangements from progressing for the other holiday periods. In a way, he'd be arguing against himself here, wouldn't he?

Is there any way of getting a holiday club or something in place and taking the time while he can?

On your specific question, I have had orders misquoted and lied about as a matter of course throughout. Almost to the degree that I do not notice it any more. But always in ways that give me less time or discredit me as a father.

I suggest this is handled very carefully, getting panicked about work and childcare could lead to saying things that are used against him in future.

 

[StayStrong]

I think the straightforward way is....if she insists that the Order says X, and it says Y, and, in actual fact (it appears) that X is better for your partner, and he has made all the arrangements.......he applies to Vary the original Order.

Mum can't really disagree.....can she??

SS.

 

[KF31]

At the last court case the judge picked up on his ex trying to convince him he had done things he hadn’t done. Now it feels like she’s trying to convince him there’s something in the order that isn’t. The judge also stated that both parents have to be flexible in arrangements but now she’s demanding he has the children more than his holiday allowance allows because he can’t get time off during next weeks half term. He has told her he is happy to have the children in half terms and has managed to book time off for all the other holidays, just not this one.

A holiday club wouldn’t really work as he often works late, well beyond the time a holiday club would be open till and I’m the same with my work.

My partner feels that she is now just going to use school holidays as another way to try and be difficult and try to cause arguments that aren’t needed. He really wants to spend extra time with them in the holidays but he’s been struggling with the pressure it’s all been putting on his mental health and is feeling like it might just be better to stick to the old court order completely and just have them for the week in the summer holidays so she can’t use the holidays as a way to be awkward.
It seems she’s never happy with anything he does.

 

[KF31]

I think the straightforward way is....if she insists that the Order says X, and it says Y, and, in actual fact (it appears) that X is better for your partner, and he has made all the arrangements.......he applies to Vary the original Order.

Mum can't really disagree.....can she??

SS.

They have only finished their last court case in December. He asked for extra time in the holidays but the judge refused to change anything in the order. So as it stands by the terms of the order he only gets a week in the summer holidays, but is willing to have them in the half terms, it’s just unfortunate that due to not being in the job long too many people had already booked time off in the February half term for him to get time off. He has booked time off for all the other half terms and 2 weeks in the summer hols.

 

[Resolute]

Unpaid leave? Parental leave? Employers can be understanding on this type of thing.

Unpaid parental leave

Employer and employee guide to unpaid parental leave - eligibility, how much leave can be taken and notice periods

www.gov.uk

Babysitter? Family?

I get the sense ex might be vindictive and looking for a way to punish. I'd be trying to sidestep this instead of having a row to achieve less time with the kids.

 

[KF31]

Unpaid leave? Parental leave? Employers can be understanding on this type of thing.

Unpaid parental leave

Employer and employee guide to unpaid parental leave - eligibility, how much leave can be taken and notice periods

www.gov.uk

Babysitter? Family?

I get the sense ex might be vindictive and looking for a way to punish. I'd be trying to sidestep this instead of having a row to achieve less time with the kids.

She’s very vindictive, the judge stated that she says she wants to move on but despite this shows fettering resentment towards him.

 

[Ash]

To be honest this all sounds a bit confusing and messy. Judges say all kinds of things - but what matters is what the court order says. If the order says he gets a week in Summer, then technically that is all he gets. Unless the parents agree otherwise.

Now it seems his ex is happy for him to have extra holidays, but agreeing when and how is getting difficult - which is why the court order should have clearly stated who has the kids when in holidays to avoid these kind of arguments. Judges leaving woolly arrangements for "parents to decide" on extra holidays is really not helpful. If they could do that it probably wouldn't be in court in the first place.

First thing I'd say is - most Dads would be happy if the ex wanted them to have holiday time. A lot of Dads have to fight for any time at all and the ex does everything possible to prevent it.

Second thing is - school holidays are not just holidays - they are care time and family time.

The confusing bit is - he asked for extra holidays (which weren't ordered) but is not wanting them at certain times.

I don't think the current order does any favours to either parent really.

A standard order would be - every other week-end, a midweek overnight, and half the school holidays. Usually with defined dates. Eg all half terms split - keeping to regular week-ends with 2.5 days tacked on (so changeover is on wednesdays). A two week and one week block in the summer. A week at Christmas and Easter (these holidays are actually longer than 2 weeks but depends when the order says holidays start).

It's all a bit up in the air. The order doesn't say half the holidays and the current holidays are informal. He can't plan and book without agreement from the ex to dates, and the ex has no obligation to agree anything - or could change her mind.

Really the order needs amending and an application to vary for defined holiday dates. That is a lot of hassle though. It would be better if they could reach agreement, politely and formally - but ultimately nothing is binding unless it's in the court order.

Clearly she wants him to have more time and have more free time herself.

I actually think it's important to see the kids during every holiday period. The regular time is part of what keeps a bond and relationship in tact. Bonds and relationships can fade and waver if they have long periods apart from him.

There are Dads who have a 50/50 order and still work full time. The idea is both parents organise their own childcare on their court ordered days. Rather than see each other as someone to be the babysitter or childcare when they're busy.

You don't have to be off work to have the kids in your care. In term time there are breakfast clubs and after school clubs. In holidays you need to rely on holiday clubs or family. He would still see them every night after work and be part of their lives.

So I suggest he just accepts half the half terms. As for her agreeing dates he can have time off work - this is tricky. And in this sense he may need to apply to vary for defined holiday dates.

If the order said, say, the Father has weeks 1, 2 and 5 of the summer holidays each year (so you always know which weeks they are) - can he put in his unavailability dates for work annually - to get those weeks? Part of working out what to ask for in a defined order, is working out what works around your requirements.

So for example May is a quiet time for me, October is a busy time so I preferred the whole of May half term and none of October. February was ok for everyone so that was split.

As he's your partner, do you live together? Presumably he can leave the kids with you if he's working? It's part of family life. Do either of you have relatives nearby or grandparents?

The way I always suggest trying to see it is. Imagine if the Mother suddenly died - and you had to be a full time Dad. How would you work it? You'd find a way - you can't just take holidays all the time - you just organise your life around it.

 

[Ash]

For now, I would just agree to the time over this upcoming half term and work something out. Refusing time with the kids never goes down well in the eyes of the court. If he can't take time off work then you and he need a plan. It's only 2.5 days tacked onto a usual week-end.

 

[KF31]

The confusing bit is - he asked for extra holidays (which weren't ordered) but is not wanting them at certain times.

I’m aware that’s how it may sound from this post, but its definitely not the case that he doesn’t want them. There are a couple of factors that I don’t want to post on here about.

His work have been supportive of him a lot more than some employers may have been willing to be. He’s still in his first year of employment and already had unpaid time off for the sake of court hearings etc because they were aware it was ongoing at the time of his employment. They also agreed to let him leave work early on the days he collects the children and start later on the days he drops them off, when they originally wasn’t willing to be flexible on it. Work is adamant he cannot have the time off. Previously he has had to give up a number of jobs for the sake of working round the court order and he is only just starting to get himself straight after a financial struggle. We’ve looked at parental/unpaid leave but according to citizens advice website they say that this can normally only be asked for if you’ve been in employment for over a year, which he has not.

We don’t live together and I work quite late as does he so after school clubs etc wouldn’t work. I know there are child minders but again I’m not aware of a child minder that would work until the time needed. We’re also mindful that if he were to leave them with a minder that it’s another thing ex would try to say she’s unhappy about and cause issues with. Family isn’t an option due to distance.

As I’ve said he’s been able to book time for all other school holidays and once his probation period is done his holiday allowance will increase so next year he would have extra time to book off and would be in a better position to ask for parental leave as he would have been there over a year.

Towards the end of last year my partner had the children for extra time at her request, as she had a close family member that was dying, so my partner did this to help her out so she could spend time with family. We were hopeful that given this she would be willing to work with my partner for the sake of this one half term, but clearly that wasn’t the case.

 

[Peanut 21]

Hi KF31, I totally understand your situation. We've private messaged before.
Basically your partner would love to have the kids as much as possible but work is a problem.
The ex is contradicting the CO to be a bloody pain knowing your partner will struggle sorting time off.
My partner has had similar situations where he's reasonably asked her if she can do something and the answer is no. She'll demand he does something and if he says no she goes ballistic.
I'm not sure on what your partner can do in this situation as he's in probation at work. If he used sick time it might look obvious that it's after his annual leave was declined.
These mothers love creating this agro.

Just to add in support of KF, as partners we sometimes step in to look after the kids. I've done it and this gets used against the dads. The mums will then say "you shouldn't be leaving the kids with your partner all day". You can't bloody win.

 

[Resolute]

Hi KF31, I totally understand your situation. We've private messaged before.
Basically your partner would love to have the kids as much as possible but work is a problem.
The ex is contradicting the CO to be a bloody pain knowing your partner will struggle sorting time off.
My partner has had similar situations where he's reasonably asked her if she can do something and the answer is no. She'll demand he does something and if he says no she goes ballistic.
I'm not sure on what your partner can do in this situation as he's in probation at work. If he used sick time it might look obvious that it's after his annual leave was declined.
These mothers love creating this agro.

Just to add in support of KF, as partners we sometimes step in to look after the kids. I've done it and this gets used against the dads. The mums will then say "you shouldn't be leaving the kids with your partner all day". You can't bloody win.

Well said Peanut, we all know this is not fair and the problem isn't coming from KF31 or her partner.

It is so important to not end up giving material to a narcissist. If she was really happy for KF's partner to have half the holidays, the judge wouldn't have refused to change the order. There must be opposition from mum, she is liable to manipulate this to her advantage.

 

[Peanut 21]

Exactly Resolute, they're narcissistic.
It doesn't matter how hard the dad works and how much he earns, he's being bombarded from all angles.
People say 'pay for a barrister, pay to get a new house so kids have own room, pay for contact centres etc'. Some dads just can not afford it. So then the mother uses that saying dad doesn't care or won't pay out. The dad can't correct this and tell the kids the truth as it gets used against him.
KFs partner wants to get time off but he just can't. It's a no win situation.
The dad can totally bankrupt himself and live on the streets and it's never enough.

 

[KF31]

Just to add in support of KF, as partners we sometimes step in to look after the kids. I've done it and this gets used against the dads. The mums will then say "you shouldn't be leaving the kids with your partner all day". You can't bloody win.

This is exactly the issue, if he leaves the children with someone she then turns it into “it’s your contact they should be with you” etc. She hates when the children spend time with me when they’re with him never mind if he wasn’t there. I think a lot of that hate comes from the fact that they like spending time with me and have told her so. Such a shame that a child can’t be left to have as many people as possible to care and look after them, especially when it’s someone else stepping up to the plate to look after their child. You’d think an ex would be happy that someone is caring for them like they are their own.

Whatever he does he can never win but is expected to bend over backwards for her. Whatever way we look at it there’s no way round it. Half term starts tomorrow, she has been told he can’t have them but can for every other half term. She’s agreed to it but has complained and says he should have them the whole of the Easter holiday. If he did that he would have to miss other half terms somewhere along the line to be able to book the extra time off and that wouldn’t be liked. So he’ll tell her the dates that he can do and if she agrees she agrees if not then he’ll have to stick to the one week in summer. I know it sounds a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face cause the only one who loses is him, but it’s come to a point now of how long do you let someone mess you around and control you for? It’s making him ill with all the stress.

 

[Ash]

Towards the end of last year my partner had the children for extra time at her request, as she had a close family member that was dying, so my partner did this to help her out so she could spend time with family. We were hopeful that given this she would be willing to work with my partner for the sake of this one half term, but clearly that wasn’t the case.

That sounds like a typical disruptive ex. One rule for me, one for you. I still think the court messed this up, because at the 11th hour, the kids still don't know who they are spending their holiday with.

If this was court ordered, he would have to have them regardless of the work situation - and get a childminder until he got back from work (when the kids would be very happy to see him). If he has to work late does he have a late start next day (ie is he working shifts). How about one of the week-ends? He must be off work at some point during the week? Assume he can have them at the week-end as usual, then that is only missing 2.5 days midweek.

It's important to keep all this recorded in brief polite (biff) emails - to cover himself, so she doesn't use things against him. I am not sure how he communicates with his ex and whether it's all verbal, but I would send something like this, is a clear confirmation.

Dear Ex name

February Half Term

As discussed previously, I am very sorry I am unable to have the children with me this week, as I would very much like to have them with me. As you may know, I started a new job recently and they will not allow me to take time off this week, but have agreed all the other holiday dates I advised you of, during the other half terms. As I get back from work very late sometimes also, I am simply unable to look after them this week. I can collect them for the week-end as usual, until xpm Monday morning (or Sunday night?) but am unable to have them for 2.5 days midweek due to work commitments and the need to earn to provide for them. Please let me know your thoughts - whether you would prefer to keep them with you midweek this coming work, or if you can recommend a childminder to be with the children all day and all evening.

Regards, X name

This keeps it confirmed in writing, gives sound reasons (if ever needed in court) but also gives her the option of keeping them with her or recommending a childminder for all day and all evening. So it kind of throws the ball back in her court - if you don't want them there and I'm working - please sort a childminder (and take the responsibility for this choice).

So if she says fine yes ex person can childmind - and he has to pay a childminder - I'd just do it. It's all evidence because this will probably end up back in court at some point. Keep all arrangements clearly in writing, as brief as possible and always polite and courteous - as that pays back huge dividends if they're used in court. Even if he doesn't feel like it.

It's a shame you can't help out this week or get time off instead. And yes I know the ex will complain but so what - it's none of her business who he chooses to leave his children with, within his own family set up.

 

[Peanut 21]

This is exactly the issue, if he leaves the children with someone she then turns it into “it’s your contact they should be with you” etc. She hates when the children spend time with me when they’re with him never mind if he wasn’t there. I think a lot of that hate comes from the fact that they like spending time with me and have told her so. Such a shame that a child can’t be left to have as many people as possible to care and look after them, especially when it’s someone else stepping up to the plate to look after their child. You’d think an ex would be happy that someone is caring for them like they are their own.

Whatever he does he can never win but is expected to bend over backwards for her. Whatever way we look at it there’s no way round it. Half term starts tomorrow, she has been told he can’t have them but can for every other half term. She’s agreed to it but has complained and says he should have them the whole of the Easter holiday. If he did that he would have to miss other half terms somewhere along the line to be able to book the extra time off and that wouldn’t be liked. So he’ll tell her the dates that he can do and if she agrees she agrees if not then he’ll have to stick to the one week in summer. I know it sounds a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face cause the only one who loses is him, but it’s come to a point now of how long do you let someone mess you around and control you for? It’s making him ill with all the stress.

Also, an extra issue is the crazy ex may then accuse the partner of doing something to the kids.
So far this hasn't happened to me but we have to cover our backs.

 

[Ash]

I can understand that. In time that gets easier. It's probably less easy because you don't live together. Ex's are known for dumping the kids on Dad extra to try and keep a new partner away. And saying - new partner mustn't see kids. Assume that isn't an issue though as you have a court order, so it's up to him who is around the kids.