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Employer letter for shared lives with order?

It does seem a bit unusual. Orders can take longer if the Judge doing it is tied up or off sick or something.
 
It is not unusual to wait 3-4 weeks from what I have seen.
Hopefully it won’t be too much longer, I’m hoping he’ll have it for Christmas so that he’s not relying on his ex agreeing to him being able to have extra time with the children, cause I have a feeling she’ll not agree just to spite him.
 
I'd give it till Friday then phone the court again if you haven't received anything.
 
So my partner finally received the judgement today. He has to go to court again with his ex so the judge can give the ruling but it is basically a mixed bag which to me seems to read more in favour of the mother.

The judge has stated that the mother has discussed adult topics about previous cases with his daughter and has said that the mother has belittled the father in front of daughter and has seemed to enjoyed doing it and that the mother has referred to my partner by his name to the children rather than referring to him as dad. Judge has described mothers belittling of dad as reprehensible and stated that it will have done nothing but impacted his daughter negatively and affected how safe she feels when with her dad. Judge stated mum had resentment towards my partner which had led her to not make the best choices and not act in an adult way.

On the flip side the judge has said that my partner had extensive evidence and has collected evidence to the point of obsessiveness. My partner provided emails, texts, pictures and some video evidence. He only provided what was needed and in relation to what he had made allegations of. Had he made allegations and provided no evidence the judge would have seen the allegations as unproven, so I don’t see how he could win on this one?

Judge has stated she is making no change to the court order. The children are still to live with mother and have contact with father. She makes no reference to the equal split of time in the holidays which cafcass suggested and that mum and dad agreed to in court so I’m not sure what’s happening there either. Whether he’ll be able to ask for that when they go to court for the judgement or whether what the judge has sent in the email is now set in stone. If so all he gets during holiday time is one week in the summer holidays.

There is no mention of any sanction against mum for the breaches that have been proven.
 
That is actually very very good. Because the Judge has made a Judgement for "reprehensible behaviour" by the Mother. That is a term that sets a high benchmark for her behaviour in legal terms and means he could either ask for costs or a penal notice to be attached to the order, due to the reprehensible behaviour. It's disappointing the Judge has not increased the time, but that is the problem with enforcement orders. The Judge has enforced the order and made a Judgement of reprehensible behaviour. I wouldn't bother asking for costs, but in a position statement for the next hearing I would suggest he asks for amendments to the order by means of a recital saying neither parent will derogate the other parent to the child. And ask for a penal notice to be attached to the front of the order.

What this means is - if she breaches again, he can apply to have her sent to prison (it's very unlikely this would actually happen to be honest, but it's a big deterrant).

The other positive thing about a Judgement for reprehensible behaviour is - if you have that Judgement in writing you don't need to send for a transcription of the Judgement, and it can be used as evidence at any future hearings. If she breaches again then I would suggest he applies to vary for change of residence, using the Judgement as his evidence. He probably wouldn't get that either but he might get 50/50 shared care. The way it works is, the more record of her breaches and bad behaviour, the more likely it is to lead to a transfer of residence if he has to go back to court again.

It is disappointing the Judge didn't increase the time as that would help reduce the opportunity for alienation of the children. I suspect that's due to the age of the eldest one.

So on the one hand - it's a bit pathetic - a lot of words and no much change to the order. And if his ex is an alienator she'll ignore that. On the other hand you have proof she's been attempting to alienate the children by means of that written Judgement confirming it. Which is worth a lot, as evidence for the future.

You have time, before the next hearing, to get things together. If he could afford a direct access barrister for that hearing, it might be possible to get more changed in the order. The barrister could say to the Judge - you have made this Judgement and it's quite clear the Mother has plenty of opportunity to continue to do this and her parental responsiblity should be curtailed, to send a clear message that she cannot continue to do this. As such I suggest that amending the order to an additional x weeks holiday a year and an additional night per week will help the childrens relationship with their Father and send a clear message to the Mother that orders are not to be breached and the Father's parental responsibility should not be trampled all over. They could try for that anyway. And possibly a penal notice.

The reason I say I wouldn't bother with asking for costs is - she's not likely to pay them - it will make her even more hostile and if she doesn't pay them it's almost impossible to enforce that payment - plus it does affect the kids (and no doubt she will tell them they can't afford xyz because Dad has taken all this money from them). A penal notice on the order is a better option. If you can't get shared care at this stage.

I think if he had to apply to vary in future, he would get shared care. It sounds like the difficulty with giving him shared care is the fact the current order doesn't even include half the school holidays. So to change that would be a big variation, and not just a change of spends time with to shared care.

I think it's good news - not as good as you'd have liked, it's true. I have heard courts don't like a lot of video and photo evidence and prefer paper based evidence. But as you say - without that you wouldn't have proved what the ex was doing - and now you have.

So basically it sounds like the Judge is just telling the Mother off. Hopefully she will comply with the order now. If she doesn't he needs to apply to vary and use that Judgement.
 
So I wrote my last post when I was tired so hadn’t wrote about some of the things the judge said that were more against dad. Some of the other things mentioned are:

1. The evidence he had showed the level of mistrust he has in mum and the lengths he was prepared to go to to vilify her.

2. That mother came across as defeated in her demeanour in the last hearing and like she wanted to get on with life. (What actually happened was mum was rudely answering the judge back and when asked if she admitted the breaches and admitted belittling dad she said yeah I don’t care I have nothing to hide and telling the judge she didn’t want to go back to court the next day).

3. Judge states that in her view father expected mother to fail and made a concerted effort to proof that to be the case.

4. Says that the fact two of the videos were transcribed are not the actions of a normal parent (we transcribed the videos in case the judge didn’t allow the videos to be submitted as evidence). The judge says she didn’t see how any of the video evidence was useful apart from one video. Most of video footage was just dash cam footage from his car which allowed him to show that he only came away from the handovers with one child and not both. This was to show contact with the other child didn’t take place, so I’m not sure why the judge says it wasn’t helpful as it clearly shows he’s telling the truth about not having contact with the other child.

5. Judge brought up parental alienation. Says Cafcass found no evidence of this and found mums claim that child was refusing contact to be supported by what child had said to cafcass. Also said dad needs to accept that sometimes children have feelings that they can’t explain but did accept that mum had discussed adult topics in front of the child.

6. The original order stated mum was to keep dad updated with medical issues which sometimes she has not. Dad has tried to access medical records and been told by GP practice that because he’s not allowed mums address he needs courts written permission (we know this is wrong and was in the process of sending a letter about this to the practice). The judge has now stated it’s not up to mum to inform him as he has PR so should find out himself. It states he has been refused permission to access the records by the practice but has provided no evidence (he doesn’t have evidence as the GP practice told him this by phone). Judge states he is to get medical information himself and to book appointments as needed. He tried to book an appointment the other week cause his son stated he had stomach ache and had this for 2 days, mum hadn’t taken him to the doctor. He tried to book an appointment and immediately the GP practice called mum and she cancelled the appointment. So how he’s suppose to do this god knows.
Since the last hearing mum has told dad that she’s told the GP to allow him access to the records but whether this is true we don’t know cause he was only told this a week ago so he hasn’t followed this up yet with the GP.

We are both of the feeling now that mum will look at this judgement and just think she can now do what she wants cause there’s basically nothing the court will do even if dad has evidence to prove what he’s saying is true. It’s upsetting to see how defeated my partner was last night after reading this. He said to me that she can do what she wants and no matter what he’ll always be the one in the wrong cause he’s a bloke, but if he did what she has done they would come down on him hard.

I don’t think he would have any chance of trying to use the judgement in the future to prove she’s been alienating, if she tries any of this again cause the judge has agreed with Cafcass’ findings that no alienation took place and that it was the child refusing the contact. I think the judgement sounds more like it’s telling dad off than mum. All it basically says about mum is she spoke of adult topics and belittled dad.

It’s just disappointing that the judge states that she feels the children’s emotional and educational needs are being met. Yet on the other hand states that mum has spoke of adult topics, belittled dad and called him derogatory names in front of the child which the judge stated can have only had a negative impact on the child’s view of dad and she finds harmful to the child’s emotional and psychological well-being. I find it very hypocritical that she’s saying mothers actions are harmful to the child’s well-being but then stating the children’s well-being is being met??

As for the next hearing that will just to be for the judge to formally give her findings. We are unsure if he will be allowed to ask for changes within the court order such as extra time in the holidays or whether he now just has to go on what the judge has said within her judgement. Would he even be allowed to file a position statement for it because the proceedings have affectively ended and this is just to put the order in place?
 
Sounds like the Judge has just sat on the fence, criticised both parents (probably classing it as "conflict between parents"). It does show that that particular Judge doesn't understand alienation because she recognises the Mother was doing alienating behaviours!

What comes across to me is something I was warned about - that Judges don't like video evidence. Yes you can use it but it can count against you (I remember a case where it counted against a Mother - she produced a video of the children vomiting after being with Dad and the Judge commented - why was she videoing the children instead of helping them). So you do need to be careful using video evidence.

It's very hard being an LIP and the one thing to never do is criticize the Mother. So by producing a lot of evidence showing what the Mother has done, the Judge is seeing that as negative towards the Mother. The key is to keep it child focused. But it is very very difficult with an alienating parent in the mix.

I think the Judge was out of her depth and the whole thing is a bit of a fob off. But ultimately she agreed with Cafcass about the older child it seems (and that's why alienating Mothers wait till a child is 12). It also sounds contradictory when the Judge then says the derogatory comments will have influenced the child. So it's a load of waffle in some ways.

The written Judgement could still be useful at some point. And he could still appeal if nothing is done to protect the childrens relationship with him as a result of this. It does clearly state that the Mother was making derogatory comments and this has influenced the child. And that should be a red flag to some Judges. The thing then is - what are they going to do about it?

It sounds like a Judge out of their depth and possibly lazy or biased towards the Mother. But I wasn't there so don't know - but you do need to be careful not to criticize the Mother or that does count against you. Maybe the Judge saw some of the video evidence as too intrusive of the Mother or something (it can be an emotive area). Strangely, if the Mother writes nasty abusive stuff in emails, the court considers that much more seriously.

It does say though that the Mother has behaved reprehensibly.

I suspect the Judge wants both parents to digest the information and have some uncertainty and trepidation about what will happen. And you'll need to wait until the next hearing. I would do a position statement though. Saying something like - he takes on board the things the Judge has said and wishes things to be amicable with the Mother but his main concern is the emotional welfare of the children when they are being turned against him, and he requests measures are put in place to deter the Mother from derogating him to the children, by means of limiting her parental responsibility in some way as a deterrant to continuing with this.

It could be worth having a direct access barrister for the next hearing - if it's a good one. The problem with alienation is, an LIP can't say that's what it is or it';s making allegations about the Mother. But a Barrister can - and will say - the Mother is alienating the children. And that is accepted.

As for the GP situation, give it chance to settle down. You also have the Judgement to show to the GP saying the Father has PR and should be allowed to deal with this (therefore the GP has legal permission to deal with him and would not be allowed to refer to the Mother instead).
 
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I would do a position statement though. Saying something like - he takes on board the things the Judge has said and wishes things to be amicable with the Mother but his main concern is the emotional welfare of the children when they are being turned against him, and he requests measures are put in place to deter the Mother from derogating him to the children, by means of limiting her parental responsibility in some way as a deterrant to continuing with this.
I think he would need to put it across slightly different and not say the children are being turned against him as the judge has stated that children’s feelings change and dad should not continue to think that mum is alienating. The judge has said the recitals she’s including are that mum has demeaned and belittled father in front of the child which the court finds harmful to the child’s psychological and emotional well-being. Another recital is that mother is reminded that she previously agreed to deal with matters in an adult manner but has demonstrated that she has not done so.
I think it may be better to ask for a penal notice on the order around mum not demeaning or speaking about dad in a derogatory manner as the judge has stated the impact this has on the child’s emotional and psychological welfare?

That’s actually a good point in regards to the GP practice, that he can use the judgement he received yesterday to confirm to the GP that he should be allowed information, if there are any further issues about this.

His ex has had bad news in her family recently and this resulted in her having a phone conversation a few nights ago with my partner. During the call her husband came on the call and asked my partner to put everything behind them and move forward for the sake of the children. My partner said that’s what he had been trying to do and her husband said he knew and that they were sorry. The problem is we’ve heard it all before, they say they’ll move on but they don’t and then they go and do something else, so whether they prove to be different this time who knows but I’m not holding my breath. Especially now as she has received the judgement cause I just have a feeling she will be thinking she can do what she wants now with no consequences for her, but as I said we’ll have to wait and see.

At the moment I’m more concerned for my partner. I know how low he’s feeling right now and I think he’s now at the point where he feels if anything happens in the future there’s no point fighting. I’ve suggested he see a counsellor as his ex was abusive to him in their relationship and I don’t think he’s ever been able to have the chance to come to terms with what he’s been through cause it’s just been court cases to deal with every step of the way but I feel he’s a bit reluctant and trying to just carry on for the children’s sake. My worry is the impact it’s having on his own mental health in the mean time.
 
Seeing a counsellor is a good idea. Or maybe he could post on here for some support. The mantra usually is “never give up”. There’s also a good piece somewhere (if I can find it) about not letting yourself get down about it as you need to keep your wits about you (and the ex will try and use it against you). One day at a time. Keep positive - sometimes you have to withdraw and lick wounds to launch another offensive (if necessary).

It sounds good there has been a phone chat. Does her H have much influence? It’s all very well saying that but is she going to let him see his elder child?

I am sure she will be affected by that Judgement and nervous too. In a way the Judge is telling them both off (sadly they seem to tar both with the same brush sometimes).

I think it may be better to ask for a penal notice on the order around mum not demeaning or speaking about dad in a derogatory manner as the judge has stated the impact this has on the child’s emotional and psychological welfare?
I am not sure that’s a good idea after reading all the above. Firstly it’s very difficult to prove if she does breach the recital. Secondly recitals are very difficult to enforce and penal notices only apply to orders not recitals.

Proposing something other than a punishment might go down better. Eg family therapy (doubt it will happen but sounds good). He could maybe ask for an additional recital making clear it is the Mother’s responsibility to comply with the order so the child has permission to come without fear of reprisal.

I’d also ask for additional holiday time.
 
A bit busy right now or I’d post in more detail ….
 
No her husband doesn’t have much influence and to be honest he’s just as bad as she is. He has been verbally abusive to my partner at handovers and on one occasion even attempted to be physically abusive to him. They say things all the time but don’t stick to it.

To be fair a phone call is nothing out the ordinary, she is always stating that she wants no contact with him and wants contact running through her mother but then requests to call him about things her mother could inform him of. I would say she phones him quite regularly.
 
Hmm. Maybe he needs to talk to her less on the phone and keep things more brief, polite and formal. He is probably worried that if he stops taking her calls, she will stop him seeing the kids. He could miss the odd one though and text in response later.
 
She’s very clever in the way she does it. She says it’s about the kids, which it is but 9 times out of 10 it could be something her mum informs him off. He’s asked her before to text him if it’s not an emergency and she went off on what calling him all sorts and then tried to use it against him in court saying that he complains if she tries to let him know anything about the children. She never let him have her own number but she finally agreed to him having it the other day so hopefully this will mean she’ll text rather than phone when she needs to tell him anything
 
So you can't trust them then. Although you think the Judgement is more in her favour, it will get to her that it says he can contact the GP himself. She will feel like she's losing some control, plus it's hardly complimentary to her. She will be fearing they might transfer residency at some point with it saying she derogated the Father, so that's probably why they're trying to be friendly now. She will also be wondering what will happen.

Could he use a parenting app like Our Family Wizard? It's not free but it has a tone ometer for messages and less personal than email or text. If he proposed that at the next hearing he might get some brownie points for that. Sometimes courts order it. He could also ask for a recital that says communication will be in writing except in an emergency when it will be a phone call and/or text.
 
She will be fearing they might transfer residency at some point with it saying she derogated the Father, so that's probably why they're trying to be friendly now. She will also be wondering what will happen.
I don’t think she’ll be worried about transferring residency cause the judge has already stated in the judgement that she is going to be making no changes to the order and the children will continue living with mum and have contact with dad. The phone call where her husband asked to put everything behind them was before they received the judgement and with what was said in court and the evidence my partner had I think she probably thought there was a good chance he’d get shared custody and that’s why they were trying to be nice. Now the judgement says the children stay with her I have a feeling she’ll be back to not caring what she does.
 
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