Employer letter for shared lives with order?

[Ash]

If he's going for shared care and it's less than 50/50 I would definitely try and get the suspended residence order. But you might not get it. I had a shared care order about 75/35 - which technically made us equal - but due to the extra time midweek, my ex still behaved like the resident parent!

The difficulty is, you could argue for 50/50 shared care so the Mother sees things are equal - but because that's less time for her with the kids they sometimes don't like increasing the time to 50/50.

If you get the shared care - even if it's 70/30 or 60/40 - it puts you in a better position to go for residency in future.

 

[KF31]

Thanks for the advice, I have a feeling Cafcass are going to do whatever they can to persuade the judge not to give a shared order. I'm just trying to find some relevant case law. I think I've found some, just need to read through to check it would be relevant to his case, only thing is I'm struggling to find any recent case law, the ones I have found all seem to be from early 2000's.

 

[Km5]

Whilst my experience of obtaining a "shared with lives with both parents order" rather than a "lives with mother order" came at a heavily contested Child Arrangement Order final hearing the basis of granting that was made quite clear. It was given despite the quantum of time being in favour of the Mother which was never contested.

In getting ready and in preparation for the hearing on Monday it is worth remembering that the Judge will look at giving a shared order primarily on what is in the Children's best interest and not that of what either parents want. A shared lives with order is often granted to show the importance of both parents being in their lives and to be equally acknowledged.

I know through experience how difficult it is when one parent fails to understand the aspect of co parenting and believes they are and will always be the primary parent. That in its self makes communication difficult.
If it is possible during the hearing - make it clear to the Judge that you understand and will try where ever possible to develop better communication going forward as Judges very much see this as crucial in the benefit of the children in promoting their best interests for them giving a shared order.

Wishing you and your partner the very best of luck for a successful outcome on Monday.

 

[KF31]

Thank you, hopefully it will go in his favour that the children have stated to Cafcass that they would like to spend time with both parents but like the idea of having more time with dad.
He has said throughout the hearings that he’s willing to work together with mum. She has stated she doesn’t want this and wants nothing to do with him. I’m hoping that will also go in his favour that he’s shown himself to be trying to be the reasonable one but being knocked back by her in his efforts

 

[Km5]

Thank you, hopefully it will go in his favour that the children have stated to Cafcass that they would like to spend time with both parents but like the idea of having more time with dad.
He has said throughout the hearings that he’s willing to work together with mum. She has stated she doesn’t want this and wants nothing to do with him. I’m hoping that will also go in his favour that he’s shown himself to be trying to be the reasonable one but being knocked back by her in his efforts

Make very clear to the Judge that Dad fully understoods the importance of both parents being able to work together for the benefit and well being of the children and that is what they need. Mums resistance to that will become obvious and clear in the questions the Judge will put to her. Dad cant influence her decisions but he can make clear he sees the importance of comminication and co parenting for the sake of the children.

The clearer you can make that - the easier it is for the Judge to see who is the more stable parent and grant the order you and the children need.

 

[Ash]

I would also suggest that the court orders "Our Family Wizard" to aid with co parenting without too much communication needed between parents. They like suggestions like that and sometimes order it. It's not free. Has calendars and a "tone-ometer" for messages.

Tools for Conflict Free Co-Parenting | OurFamilyWizard

OurFamilyWizard is a comprehensive application to solve shared parenting challenges once and for all.

www.ourfamilywizard.co.uk

 

[KF31]

I would also suggest that the court orders "Our Family Wizard" to aid with co parenting without too much communication needed between parents. They like suggestions like that and sometimes order it. It's not free. Has calendars and a "tone-ometer" for messages.

Tools for Conflict Free Co-Parenting | OurFamilyWizard

OurFamilyWizard is a comprehensive application to solve shared parenting challenges once and for all.

www.ourfamilywizard.co.uk

Thank you, I have just let him know about this. Hopefully he has everything he needs now to help him today. I managed to find some case law so he’s got all that down. Now it’s down to how the hearing goes.

 

[Ash]

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

 

[KF31]

Well what a day by all accounts. Started off with mum and Cafcass asking dad to agree to have shared care of one child but not the other one that his contact was obstructed with, he refused the offer. The judge dismissed a couple of the breaches but mum admitted the rest. By all accounts the judge wasn't going to bother looking at the evidence as mum admitted the breaches but dad convinced her she needed to see what had been going on, when she looked at it her view changed. Mum got a stern word from the judge about some of the things she said about dad to the children. Judge is now considering a sanction against mum.
They are to go to court again tomorrow, mum answered the judge back saying she didn't want to go back and kicked off.

So where it is at the moment is tomorrow they go back and Cafcass will be there (they had left before mums outburst so didn't see it), dad has informed court he did not feel supported by Cafcass at all, mum is opposite but she will be cause Cafcass is all in favour of her. Judge has said that tomorrow they will discuss what they want but the judge will be making a written judgement, so they won't know the final decision and will have to wait. From what I have been told it sounds like he has a lazy judge, his McKenzie friend told him she's never met a judge like her in her life and that the Cafcass officer is useless and clearly doesn't want to have to do any work. Dad will be submitting a draft order of what he wants tomorrow.

I have done research on this particular Cafcass officer and found a report where in one case a judge condemned her report as inadequate and woeful and threw her judgement out.

 

[Ash]

Ok so the Judge is going to do a Judgement against the Mother. That's good - you need to send for a transcription of tomorrow's hearing, including the Judgement. If you ever need to go back to court in future that Judgement can be used as evidence and he may get residency next time.

I'm a bit concerned that your other half didn't accept the shared care though. Without knowing all the ins and outs of the case, it seems the best outcome if he's unlikely to get a transfer of residency. Maybe there is still that opportunity tomorrow.

I bet his ex waited for Cafcass to leave before kicking off.

 

[KF31]

He’s asking for shared care of both children, she only offered him shared care of one child and it wasn’t the child that she obstructed his contact with for almost a year. His concern is if he accepted that they would have written everything off and he would still be in the same position with the other child, in that he would have nothing in place to attempt to protect the child from being put through that again by the mother.
It’s a risk but one that needed to be taken for hopefully a better outcome, especially now as the judge got to see some of the evidence.

I’m not sure if the judge is doing a judgement against the mother, I was just told she’s doing a written judgement so he won’t know the outcome tomrrow, but then I’ve never heard of a written judgement so just presumed that would just be the judge putting in writing a new order

 

[Ash]

Oh I see what you mean. Yes it should be for both. A Judgement is often something that is "pronounced" at the end of a hearing and can be quite serious for the person the Judgement is against. Not for now but for the future. Not all hearings have a Judgement. Sometimes a Judgement is just a general thing as to the Judge's comments on the case. If a Judgement finds someone's behaviour is "reprehensible" and that goes on record that's a high bar of bad behaviour in family court.

 

[KF31]

I see, well hopefully if the judge is doing that it will be against the mother now that she's admitted the breaches. The judge did point out to mum after reading some of the evidence that dad has tried to support her and help and instead all she has done has call him names to the children. I feel so sorry for what he has had to go through today and previously. I really don't know how men going through this manage to find the strength to keep fighting these nut job women who are determined to destroy their kids lives. Today she demanded that she wanted the court to order that he has to tell her everywhere he's going with the children outside of their home town. She reckons its in case of "emergency" then she knows where the kids are, like he can't just tell her where he is if there happens to be an emergency. Cafcass response was to say it was a good idea. So now she wants him reporting everywhere he goes. I'm hoping the judge would be able to see that its not realistic and would impact on his time with the children if he had to keep reporting to her where he was and when. He has PA and shouldn't have to report stuff like that to her unless he's taking them out the country. She just can't stop trying to control. Mckenzie friend thinks mum has mental health issues.

 

[Ash]

That is really annoying - had that myself. It's about control not safety and yes Cafcass say oh what a good idea to reassure the Mother. No xxxxing way! All it does is allow the Mother to stress out the child and disrupt their fun times with you - by abusing phone contact. Believe, me my ex had a tracking device on my son's phone! We used to leave it in the car lol. Sometimes you have to just laugh and ignore their ridiculous behaviour - providing you have a good court order. But the sad thing is the control and intimidation of the kids by these nutjob exes.

I think an argument against that needs to be strongly but carefully worded in a short position statement (for tomorrow). That while he has no objection letting her know if you're going away, that needs to be the case for both parents, purely out of courtesy, and he suggests a recital that states both parents will contact the other as soon as possible in the case of any emergency. And that that is all that is needed. But he feels strongly that the children should be free to enjoy their time without undue intimidation or influence via phone contact and that phone contact needs to be limited when he goes away with the children. And that if the Mother wishes to know anything she should ask him directly, by text, and not the children.

I would also ask for a recital that says she must provide the unlock password code for the kids phones so he can monitor them. (Assuming she's provided their phones) as this is in the childrens interests.

She may have mental health issues (but don't say that as it might not go down well with the court) or it may be deliberate disruption because she wants to be in control. some ex's cannot stand the idea of the kids enjoying another family life and a stepmum being involved.

In addition to the recital, set house rules for phones with the kids when with you. Depends on their ages - this worked for me (with help from a PA book) when my son was younger but by 12 they have their phones on them permanently).

House rule was: Phones go on the kitchen table when they arrive and live there. They are allowed to check for messages once a day between 4pm and 6pm. Phones not to be used at mealtimes. Instead you give them their own phone at your house, to use for playing games, calling you when you're out etc, and have a games console. Then they don't need the phone she provides.

 

[KF31]

So far she hasn’t put it to the judge about notifying where he’s going, she’s only said it to Cafcass, but it’s not something he will agree to and if she tries to ask for it he will put forward an argument on how it will impact quality time with the children. If it looks like it’s going her way he’ll say that he wants the same in return. They have started bringing phones with them, daughter has been secretive over hers previously, but cafcass dismissed his concern about it as normal. He has managed to look at the other child’s and he found a tracking device. He already had suspicions with the daughters phone. He doesn’t let them take the phones with them when they go out, he makes them leave them at home.
He’s also going to ask that the court state that mum is not to contact them on the phones and disrupt his contact time and that communication is to only take place if the children choose to message her.

 

[Ash]

This is a very difficult area and one an ex will manipulate. I had all the same issues and it's very hard to stop it. If you have something like communication is only to take place if the children choose to message her, all that will happen is she will instruct the children they have to. And if she is an alienator she will make them feel rubbish if they don't do what they're told (or even punish them).

All this goes over Cafcass head because they just don't get what an alienator is. I would suggest he just asks for contact with the Mother must be limited to avoid pressure on the children and disruption of their time with him. And maybe have that in a clause in the order.

eg phone contact will be limited to once a week and the Mother must provide the Father with the passcode of the childrens devices.

That way she can't pressurise the children to do it more often. you can't do much about a tracking device as most phones have this built in (with the excuse from her it's in case the phone is lost eg) - like find my iphone. Apps like snapchat etc can show location as well.

You can't fight all of it so be selective. The main thing is to have a good order for as much time as possible, and ideally shared care so it gives him a bit more power/equalises the power. And then you can manage things your way within that time. The other thing they do is instruct the kids on your time (either before they come or by phone) so they feel anxious or conflicted. You can help with this by saying - in this house we do it this way. then they can blame you so they don't get into serious trouble. Like saying - Dad wouldn't allow that as he said it's his rules in his house. That gets them off the hook.

So another clause that would be good to add is "any adult communications or arrangements regarding the children must be between parents and not using children as a messenger or conduit".

Having something like that in an order shows, in future, there have been those kind of issues (if you end up having to go back again).

 

[Resolute]

Just a quick point of interest.

If she is saying shared care for one and not for the other, she is inadvertantly giving up most of the arguments against shared care for the other child. She couldn't agree shared care for one and then say dad is unsafe/unreliable/incapable/abusive...

Today she showed great confidence in the man she says is not up to shared care!

 

[KF31]

This is a very difficult area and one an ex will manipulate. I had all the same issues and it's very hard to stop it. If you have something like communication is only to take place if the children choose to message her, all that will happen is she will instruct the children they have to. And if she is an alienator she will make them feel rubbish if they don't do what they're told (or even punish them).

All this goes over Cafcass head because they just don't get what an alienator is. I would suggest he just asks for contact with the Mother must be limited to avoid pressure on the children and disruption of their time with him. And maybe have that in a clause in the order.

eg phone contact will be limited to once a week and the Mother must provide the Father with the passcode of the childrens devices.

That way she can't pressurise the children to do it more often. you can't do much about a tracking device as most phones have this built in (with the excuse from her it's in case the phone is lost eg) - like find my iphone. Apps like snapchat etc can show location as well.

You can't fight all of it so be selective. The main thing is to have a good order for as much time as possible, and ideally shared care so it gives him a bit more power/equalises the power. And then you can manage things your way within that time. The other thing they do is instruct the kids on your time (either before they come or by phone) so they feel anxious or conflicted. You can help with this by saying - in this house we do it this way. then they can blame you so they don't get into serious trouble. Like saying - Dad wouldn't allow that as he said it's his rules in his house. That gets them off the hook.

So another clause that would be good to add is "any adult communications or arrangements regarding the children must be between parents and not using children as a messenger or conduit".

Having something like that in an order shows, in future, there have been those kind of issues (if you end up having to go back again).

His McKenzie friend has said the same previously, in that Cafcass have no clue about PA and tend to just put everything down as conflict between parents instead.
We have put in the draft order that any communication between mum and dad is go through mum dad or grandmother (mums previously requested contact to go through her mum herself so they don’t have direct communication but she never sticks to it, she refuses to give her own number to dad and withholds her number if she calls).

 

[KF31]

Just a quick point of interest.

If she is saying shared care for one and not for the other, she is inadvertantly giving up most of the arguments against shared care for the other child. She couldn't agree shared care for one and then say dad is unsafe/unreliable/incapable/abusive...

Today she showed great confidence in the man she says is not up to shared care!

I picked up on this too. A similar point has also been made in dads previous position statement in that if she had genuine concerns about him she wouldn’t have still been allowing the contact with the other child to go ahead as normal. Same as shared care, if she had genuine concerns she wouldn’t offer shared care of the one child.
I would have hoped a judge would pick up on this but given what his McKenzie friend has said about the judge I’m not all that confident. Sounds like the judge and Cafcass don’t have a backbone between them. They had to fight and chip away at the judge just to get it to where they got it yesterday and luckily they did what they needed to do. Going forward I don’t know if the judge is now going to be more open about her judgement or if she’s still just going to try and close the case off the easiest way she can. McKenzie friend described the judge to me as a bit of a wildcard.

I think mums argument for not offering shared care of the other child is going to be along the lines of, child wasn’t wanting to go for contact so don’t feel the child is up to further contact with dad etc. All the usual type of lies to try and persuade them to keep full residency with her.

 

[Ash]

Honestly it's just shared care! It's not like he's asking to take sole residency entirely. He just needs to outline the benefits of the shared care to the Judge. I honestly would suggest the "My Family Wizard" thing because they like to see one parent is up for co parenting, even if the other one isn't. One thing that would count against shared care is if both parents show hostility towards the other one. So in that sense, even if your partner doesn't want to have direct contact with her, he will look good for coming up with a solution to that. Parents are expected to communicate about the kids - even if it is just via email or app or absolute minimum and only in emergencies. He can also argue that is why the order needs to be clearly worded and clearly defined, to minimise the need for communication or disagreement.