Email to BM - can anyone provide feedback before I send?

[aqua007]

Hi All,

Thanks for your tips on my last post, I did get in touch with a solicitor and they advised I try to keep things as civil as possible with the BM with our custody dispute and for the time being, don't let her know her know I'm speaking to a solicitor. They also said I should try to get her to agree in writing what our normal custody arrangement is and possibly try to get the agreement formalized in court so she doesn't try to up child maintenance in the meantime while we work on the alienation issues. Essentially, the solicitor agreed mediation is not working and to go ahead and get the mediator to sign off in light of BM deflecting and now cancelling session 2 last minute. Her take is that given my daughters mental health issues, BM is not getting her the help she needs (took her to a 'psychic healer initially) and seems to be afraid of our daughter. She advised I be polite and cooperative at all costs so she doesn't get her back up. Here is what I have drafted:

Hi XXXX,

Hope you're all well and that you had a nice Easter Break. I also hope (child) has had a chance to recharge her batteries ready for the last few months of the school year.

I've had time to reflect on the current situation since we last had correspondence 2 and a half weeks ago. I've come to the conclusion that this is less about you and me trying to force conclusions, and it's more about accepting that this is likely to take some time to resolve. Clearly (child) is currently going through some mental health issues and probably needs the space and time to move things along at the pace that she chooses, however hard that is for me as I obviously still want her to come and stay at mine as she has done for the past 12- 13 years.

I also appreciate that I need to let the Forward Thinking / social services route run its course at the speed that it needs to so that (child) is comfortable. I do still firmly believe that the best course for (child's) future is to have both of her parents active in her life, which I know you have also been encouraging her to do, but when she is ready to resume that.

With regards to mediation, I feel like it's not really providing any benefit or addition to what we can agree upon between us. If you're in agreement, I'm happy to inform them that we have decided to try and sort things out between us.

If you want to digest this information and let me know your thoughts I'd appreciate it, but in summary, I appreciate that we need to go at (child's) pace to begin with, with the intention of keeping an arrangement similar to what has been in place for the last 12 - 13 years (2 / 3 nights a week). I would really appreciate it if you can let (child) know that she is always welcome here and to keep encouraging that like I know you have been doing so.

I'd still love to hear about her trip if she feels like calling me at any point, even on your phone. If there has been any more therapy sessions / braces updates, I'd appreciate an update.

 

[Ash]

I'll comment a bit later. It's a good idea but you need to be very careful what you put in writing and what you agree to in writing! I wouldn't send it just yet.

Are you basically saying you're going to get signed off mediation and apply to court but not let the ex know in advance? Or did I not read that right?

Yes it's good to keep communication courteous and civil and show you're trying to resolve things but don't send it just yet.

I don't understand all of it (not knowing all the background) but it seems to suggest you are accepting not seeing your daughter?!!!! By saying she needs time etc? I wouldn't put that. There will be another way of skirting around things.

 

[aqua007]

So the way the solicitor explained it is to not mention solicitors, anything legal, or even use strong legal terms so she’s not on the defense. She said to explain I want to see my child as our past arrangement worked nicely and she needs both parents in her life. She said to suggest we end mediation and work it out between us. Then I get the mediator to sign off on the form saying we tried and it’s done. Once we have an informal agreement between the two of us then the solicitor and I work to get a child arrangement order - this part I’m unclear on as I thought she said an informal agreement would work where child maintenance was concerned but that wasn’t my wife’s interpretation of the call.

So yes, I think you’ve read into everything correctly. This email is meant to be polite but take us down a different path. I’ll hold off on sending it and am all ears on any suggestions. Thanks!

 

[Ash]

It sounds like your Solicitor is trying to say come to an agreement without court. It that does happen then it can be put into a consent order. Which needs both of you to have a solicitor. It's still an order but no need to go to court. The wording is agreed by both parents and both solicitors and it's just sent to court for sealing.

But I am not sure that's what your solicitor is actually saying. It sounds like she might be saying - give in to what your ex wants? On the other hand if the solicitor then says get signed off mediation maybe she is saying - try to agree amicably and if you do need to apply to court later you already have the mediation sign off (it lasts for 3 months).

Ok just read back to your first post. It sounds to me like the solicitor is saying - try politely negotiating for how the usual schedule is. I doubt that will work actually, but what it does do is give you evidence, later for court, that shows you tried to be amicable and reasonable and tried to resolve things. It might work. I need to go and read your other post to see what's happened before commenting more.

 

[Ash]

Ok I remember now

Mediation: Daughter refusing to see me (again)

Could use some advice and I'll try to keep this brief: Have not been with my daughter's mom since she was 1, she is now 13. Up until I remarried, things have been great with mom. 2 years ago my daughter got a phone and there were various issues - she was threatening people online, etc - mom...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

I think I suggested sending her an email previously and possibly sorting out a family based arrangement for CM. If you haven't done, then yes the solicitor is right, that could be a good start. If you can smooth over the CM your ex might suddenly become more amenable to your daughter seeing you.

I didn't know social services were involved? How are they involved with your daughter? Is this recent? You didn't mention mental health issues before - just the business with the stuff she was doing on the phone. I personally wouldn't put a lot of stuff that's in that email as it is basically playing into your ex's hands that child needs to do things at her own pace and I honestly think that is just an excuse and the more time passes, the less likely things are to start up again. Especially as the previous issues were about dodgy things on her phone and not being liked to be told off about it. But your ex clearly didn't try and sort that out with her or back you up!

I think what you need in writing is something that covers you while trying to be amicable and co-operative etc. But doesn't say anything that could be used against you if it did go to court. (Like accept not seeing child for a while!). I am guessing both the mediator and solicitor think - a bit hopeless as she's 13 and the court will just follow her wishes and they can't force her to go. But they are perhaps believing this is all your daughter's choice and your ex has nothing to do with it. Of course she does. Kids do what their Mothers tell them. If she said - you xxxing well go to your Dad's as usual and if I catch anything bad on your phone again, both your Dad and I will confiscate your phone for a week. We've agreed on that.

But she doesn't do/say that, she pretends she's trying to "encourage" her. Frankly this is very common when they get to over 12 "she doesn't want to come - I can't make her" type thing. But yes you have to play the game a bit in a polite email which shows you have tried to be amicable and ask your ex nicely, but honestly I think giving her the CM back might make your ex more amenable! On the other hand if your daughter isn't coming why should you pay additional CM? I think the email needs to be trying to reach an agreement, yet. Oh and the other excuse as old as the hills is "she doesn't like your girlfriend or she doesn't like her siblings" (that means your ex doesn't like it and it puts her nose out of joint or she fears your daughter may prefer it at your house and want to choose to come and live with you when she's 16 (which she can!).

My ex is trying the same kind of things at the moment - my son is 14 and also parented him since birth, initially as a single Dad and have a close relationship. He does want to come but she keeps organising things for him (but only on my time!) and claiming - he decided it himself. xxxocks!

But the solicitor is probably thinking - if you go in to court, quite rightfully - with issues about your daughter's phone usage being of concern and your ex not allowing you access to the parental app and when you raised this your ex said your daughter doesn't want to come any more, then the court may order that she has to allow you access to the parental app and the time should be as before - but if your ex says "I can't force her" it could go either way. It could be Cafcass agree and say oh she's just being a teenager, or it could be a flakey Judge who says - we can't force a teenager. Or it could be a very good judge who gives your ex a robust talking to and says it's her responsbility to teach the child she needs to go and if she can't do that he'll send the child to live with her Dad (ie scare her into it - because your ex does have this power).

Playing devil's advocate for a moment though - maybe your daughter is pee'd off with you for looking at her phone, taking it away or telling her off, or telling your ex, and is being a stroppy teenager. Playing you off against each other even. Or deciding she doesn;t want you taking her phone off her again.

So yes you could write to your ex something like

"Hope you're all well and that you had a nice Easter Break. I also hope (child) has had a chance to recharge her batteries.

I've had time to reflect on the current situation since we last had correspondence 2 and a half weeks ago. With regards to mediation, I feel like it's not really providing any benefit or addition to what we can agree upon between us. If you're in agreement, I'm happy to inform them that we have decided to try and sort things out between us.

I understand what you are saying about letting (child) do things at her own pace. I also think teenagers need careful guidance to help them through these sensitive years, and I think you and I could achieve that. Obviously I still want her to come and stay at mine as she has done for the past 12- 13 years and the relationship is just as important as she grows up. I am her Dad. I do think that is in her best interests, because despite her growing independence, she still needs the stability of both her parents in her life guiding her. I think you and I can work this out and perhaps have a united front on things like her phone usage so we are both on the same page. I suggest that neither of us use confiscation of her phone as discipline and obviously teenagers are going to do the odd thing we don't know about, but I would be grateful if you could let me know if there is anything of concern that you find on the parental app meanwhile as I do worry about her.

I'd still love to hear about her trip and would appreciate you encouraging her to call me, even on your phone, so I can talk with her and then perhaps arrange to see her in a week or so and progress from there. And hopefully all will be back to the normal routine soon. If there have been any other updates on her welfare or braces, I'd appreciate an update.

With regards to Child Maintenance payments, I understand that we can also agree these between us as a "family based arrangement" at a stable regular monthly amount we both agree on, rather than the CMS Assessment figure which can go up and down depending on my earnings, so is not so much a stable and reliable payment. My suggestion is that we perhaps agree an amount of £xxxx a month, which is slightly more than the Child Maintenance assessment, and that this last until she is 16 and then we review the matter again. With us both continuing to provide for her in our own homes in the meantime.

Please feel free to take time to digest all the above and then let me know what you think."

This is just a suggestion. She kind of has you over a barrel if she didn't want the CM to reduce and got it increased by your daughter not staying at yours any more, because of your daughter's age and it being slightly harder in court because of her age (but not impossible).

I don't know what the difference is between what you were paying her before, what it went down to and what it went up to when your daughter stopped coming.

Again I wouldn't send anything straight away. But she "might" agree to a phone call and a visit and if you agree the finances she might say - daughter is fine coming to see you now. You then also have a bit of leverage because if she stops her seeing you, then you can reduce the money - but that is a horrible catch 22 situation - I am in it as well. I think my ex knows if she stops my son seeing me I will stop the money but I also know she will turn him against me and I might never see him again if I stop the money (just to add that my CMS assessment is very low and I pay more than assessed).

 

[Ash]

How does that sound above? I don't think she's going to agree to anything (your ex) unless the CMS is agreed. You've put forward a proposal but haven't committed. And yes it's a bit like "pay per view"! What's this about your daughter having mental health issues and therapy? Is that recent or been going on for some time? I skirted over that as didn't know what it was about and left it generally as "welfare" but also in case you ever need to use the email as evidence of negotiations - because mention of mental health issues might not help you in court as they'd see child in conflict - leave her with the Mother or something.

 

[aqua007]

Thanks so much for your response! Sorry for not mentioning the mental health issues earlier, I was trying to give the gist of it without bogging the post down but I can see I skimmed over an important detail!

The mental health issues escalated after the second phone incident. A few months before she complained of noises bothering her (people chewing, putting plates in microwave, etc). The GP said her hearing is perfect and referred her to a psychologist which left her sobbing on the way home saying no one is listening to her. Around this time she was saying she had anxiety. When I found she was communicating with someone from America claiming to be a 13 year old girl and chats with other children where daughter told them she 'hopes they die' I told her no more and I was going to discuss with BM.

BMs initial reaction was she can't monitor her phone as daughter is 13 and falls into the Human Rights Act. I contacted a mediator and BM straightened up and put a monitoring app on her phone. She won't give me access to it but says I can install my own on her phone should daughter ever came back to our house. Probably because daughter now had rules at BM's, she started self-harming and said she was going to commit suicide. Neither myself nor BM believe she is suicidal, nonetheless, I offered my private insurance to get her a therapy appt. BM initially declined and took her a 'spiritual' healer who later told me in a call my daughter is psychic, can see shapes - he also felt the adrenal glands her in feet and determined she has trauma from the land because her school was acquired from a Catholic Church. The healer asked me several times if BM was with someone and I continually told him I don't know, my daughter says she's been dating someone for about a year but I don't have discussions with her about that. He told me BM seems 'lost.' I took notes during the call to the therapist (BM asked me to call him after his assessment of daughter) which I summed up in an email to BM. I stuck to the facts and didn't put opinions in the email but she absolutely flipped out and later told me on the phone she felt I was flippant about it. Anyway, after that she agreed to get daughter in to see a therapist and I have once again offered my private insurance.

I didn't realize we would both need a solicitor to get an order in place. That's going to be a hard sell in a way as BM doesn't make loads of money and is very tight with her money. Money was her primary motivation to get out of going to mediation the first time my daughter got caught with adult material on her phone and her social media presence was horrendous - bullying kids at school, etc. BM refused that she had anything to do with daughter not wanting to see me and it was up to us to work it out - hard to do when she doesn't see me. Once I paid the mediator and she reached out to BM, BM called me all frantic with politeness saying she sees I misunderstood her emails (I did not) and yes of course she would send daughter to see me.

My interpretation from the solicitor is to play nice via email, get her to agree that even though daughter is refusing to see me, she typically stays at our house X nights out of the week. Here, my wife believes after she agrees in writing that's the typical arrangement, we move for a formalized agreement that is submitted by our solicitor to the courts. The motivation right now being we don't want BM to play up and go after more £££ saying she has daughter full time (she did this after an argument years ago, we had an informal agreement where I paid half of everything - then she went to CM and claimed she had her full time and I have no contact which obviously doubled the amount but I straightened that out quickly with CM, she now gets less than she did before as I paid half of uniforms, trips, lunch, extra curricular activities, etc.). What is your experience here? Any other suggestions for the email?

 

[aqua007]

I probably should have clarified something else.

The last few years have been absolutely miserable dealing with BM's antics - my wife moved from another country to join us and within a week BM was meddling and refusing to let daughter come to ours for weeks because my wife's 10 year old, medium sized dog was running after my other daughter and being a herder, nipped her leg. No skin was broken and it didn't cause her any pain. I saw the entire thing and while it shouldn't have happened, the dog was playing, wagging her tail. BM claimed daughter's life was in danger (she wasn't even the one that was nipped!). The police were called, they were speechless to see the dog, and apologized profusely that they had to take her for assessment and it was obvious this was BM playing politics. We got the dog back 2 weeks later but it was terrible on my wife and all of us, seeing the police and dog unit at our house made our youngest daughter cry, and later when my wife went to the police station to give a statement, the police told her BM was calling up everyday and being a general nuisance. BM got nothing accomplished, she demanded to see the police report confirming the dog was not a threat and the police emailed her (cc'ed me on it) saying that no, she would get no such paperwork unless she hired a solicitor and the case was closed with no findings or charges.

Since then, BM looks for every opportunity to alienate my daughter. To be honest, as much as I hate saying this, the last few months have been the best my family has had in a long time. I of course want to see my daughter but I'm seeing that if any rules are imposed, this is how she responds and BM encourages it. It's not livable. I would prefer to have contact but at this point, if this is how they are both going to act I can give them some time to sort it out but I'm not paying her more ££ as this is BM's doing, not mine.

 

[Ash]

Thanks for that explanation. And

BM initially declined and took her a 'spiritual' healer who later told me in a call my daughter is psychic, can see shapes

That is really going to help someone with mental health issues isn't it? Not. Tbh I've seen cases where residency has been transferred due to a Mother getting a child involved in a cult. Not quite the same thing but not far off.

So is the CM not an issue at the moment then? If not then obviously don't mention it. Yes it sounds like the solicitors idea is to have something committed in writing to what is agreed. In case you need to show that for a court order later. Makes it easier to get it ordered.

It sounds like the trigger was finding stuff on her phone - and that;s exactly why parents do need to monitor. There are websites out there that actually encourage kids into suicide. There's all kinds of freaky stuff online and they are very susceptable to being brainwashed by this stuff online.

If she's now having therapy, are both you and your ex involved with the therapist? What kind of therapist? Psychologist? Psychiatrist or just a general counsellor type therapist. Sorry, none of my business, but I'd have thought if your daughter has had suicidal feelings she needs properly assessing by a Doctor and possibly even medication temporarily. Whatever is going on in her teenage brain, that could be upsetting her, shouldn't be making her feel suicidal.

I'm wondering also if there could be an element of shame or humiliation that she was caught having looked at porn and sending nasty messages to people.

Edit - I just read your other post above. That explains a lot. And attempted alienation can cause kids to feel suicidal. It's a really tricky situation in that case because your daughter could be under massive pressure to reject you. And it may also be why she's seeking outlets online.

Another reason it needs to be the right therapist and not one chosen by your ex that only gives feedback to your ex.

I'm going to have a think about this if you don't mind. If there was no alienation type stuff then you might have a different approach to when there is. I have struggled with communication in this situation before. I couldn't bring myself to write a courteous amicable email asking about something that I knew my ex had set up and was making out it was my son's decision when it wasn't - because that somehow seemed to be denying him - and him think that I had believed all the crap. I did manage a way to carefully word things that didn't let on that I knew/guessed something while still trying to seek a resolution courteously. But as my ex actually was actively trying to get my son to reject me and to keep him away, it was pretty pointless as you're trying to persuade someone who has an agenda. But what it did do was keep a certain amount of pressure on my ex (leverage so to speak) with her thinking I might go to court. Sounds like yours is similar. Maybe backed down a bit when the mediator spoke to her and said you could see your daughter (mediator might have said to her - if he went to court he could get residency if you stop her seeing him).

So what changed? If she was saying you could see your daughter after the mediator spoke to her. Maybe she thought about and decided to say daughter doesn't want to come.

I know what you mean about the relief - my son was on holiday with my ex for a week recently and the relief was that my ex was out of my hair for a week and no more disruption during that time (it started up again as soon as she got back).

Every situation is different. But - your daughter is still your daughter - teenagers are teenagers but she's still the same girl and by 16 she'll be different again. But I think this first few years of teens is a really tricky time for them and particularly if they have pressure from a parent. It does sound like your ex may be derogating you and your family to your daughter and pressurising her to do and not do certain things at your home (which might explain some of the moodiness and being on her phone all the time - although that's apparently normal teen behaviour as well!).

How about suggesting a change of schedule? You said your daughter used to come 2 or 3 days a week. Was that just overnights? Did she ever spend a whole week-end with you? Because I've found my son reverts to normal after the first 24 hours or so. It takes 24 hours. Similiarly he had also had two homes from birth.

Do you still have the dog? On one level it could have been genuine anxiety if your daughter was nipped by a dog (and I know some people will have a dog put down if they bite even once - especially if it draws blood). But yes it sounds like she was milking it and turning it into a big issue.

And yes you having a wife and another family will make your ex feel threatened if she's that way inclined - that your daughter would actually enjoy family life away from her Mum. I think their biggest control/fear thing is that the child may decide they prefer living with you and leave her when she gets to 16. I am sure that is what it is with my ex - so she tries to pre-empt it by minimising time now and attempting to alienate.

I think mine has given up trying to alienate actually, but my son does get a lot of pressure and I think if he was kept away long enough she might alienate him.

So my feeling is - don't let that happen. They need to see your regularly to stop the alienation taking hold.

 

[Ash]

One thing I was asking about what type of therapist for though is - it's very common for a parent who is alienating, to "get therapy" for the child, choose the therapist themselves and tell the therapist all kinds of xxxxx. And the therapist can unwittingly enable the alienation then - and the child knows the parent is talking to the therapist so can't really say what they want to say. Some alienating parents use it as a way to get a child to make allegations to a therapist so the therapist reports it.

In fact in court situations, they frown on either parent organising counselling or therapy unless it's court ordered with a designated therapist. But then courts are also very remiss in ordering therapy.

If social services are involved, are they talking to her?

 

[Ash]

Anyway, despite what the solicitor says, I personally don't think the email should be "too" helpful and amenable. I say that because, I don't know what your ex is like, but mine would see that as a sign of weakness and think she'd got you.

I amended the above suggestion slightly. How about:

"Hope you're all well and that you had a nice Easter Break. I also hope (child) has had a chance to recharge her batteries.


I've had time to reflect on the current situation since we last had correspondence 2 and a half weeks ago. With regards to mediation, I feel like it's not really providing any benefit or addition to what we can agree upon between us. If you're in agreement, I'm happy to inform them that we have decided to try and sort things out between us.

I understand what you are saying about letting (child) do things at her own pace. I also think teenagers need careful guidance to help them through these sensitive years. Obviously I still want her to come and stay at mine as she has done for the past 12- 13 years and the relationship is just as important as she grows up. I am her Dad. And I do think that is in her best interests, because she still needs the stability of both her parents in her life guiding her and the reassurance of familiarity.

I'd still love to hear about her trip and would appreciate you encouraging her to call me, even on your phone, so I can talk with her and then perhaps arrange to see her in a week or so and progress from there. And hopefully all will be back to the normal routine soon. If there have been any other updates on her welfare or braces, I'd appreciate an update.

Please feel free to take time to digest all the above and then let me know what you think."

But you may want to put something else in about the therapist. I noticed you were asking for updates - that suggests that you're not involved with the therapist and your ex is. How about suggesting you both have a meeting with the therapist to discuss daughter's progress? Ie put her on the spot in a kind of amicable way - over wanting to be involved in this.

 

[Ash]

In terms of needing a solicitor for a consent order. It can be a minor thing if the wording is all agreed. You could have a solicitor draw up an order. She just needs a solicitor to say they approve the order and wording and write a letter saying that which get sent to the court, and your solicitor then sends the order to the court with a letter saying both solicitors have approved it and the other solicitor has written to confirm this. That would be a one off fee to her solicitor for a one off minor job - maybe half a days work and a letter.

So it "should" be a simple matter, but could get protracted if the wording isn't agreed. Each solicitor looks out for their own client. So if say it was agreed your daughter would spend every wednesday night with you from school and every other week-end with you from Friday to Sunday tea time, and half the school holidays (as an example) that sounds straight forward. But your solicitor might draw up good wording that makes that clear and then your ex or her solicitor might want "get out clauses" like "if the child wants to" or not want to commit to certain times or something. Then it can end up with a load of letters going back and forth between solicitors, running up bills and no agreement on wording - which then means a court hearing to decide the wording. Then she won't want to court so will want you to compromise on something then it gets into loggerheads with each wanting the other to compromise and you can't compromise on order wording if it makes the order a worthless piece of paper. A consent order works better when people get on and are agreed and not trying to play games.