Daughter doesn't want to live with mom

[Sepul]

Recently, my daughter, who will soon be 13, told me that she wanted to live with me. He says he has nothing to do with his mother, despises his stepfather. She said that they have not talked to her heart for two years. My daughter has an interest in literature, drawing, history, geography. But mom and stepfather don't read anything. The people are narrow-minded, according to my daughter. I agree with that, but never told her that. Now she voiced it and I said that "her opinion is consonant with me".

In short, a powerful disassembly is brewing. I asked my daughter why come to me? She responded - because you are "smart, educated, calm, predictable", that it is "always interesting to talk to you about everything". That I'm cooking delicious organic food. That I don't drink or smoke (they both smoke and drink).

I talked to her mom. She said she gave her hands after "disrespect for someone". The daughter complained to school. Now the social services will have a conversation with her mother. She complained that her daughter ran away from home and caught her in the park. That her daughter came home late. That she "caused stealing from a store." That she can "rest and miss school." That she "sees only bad things." That she has some kind of "mental disorder". In general, the counterattack is in response. No words - what a beautiful and wonderful daughter. It's a solid hit back.

I talked to my daughter. She says her mother is unpredictable, often changes her mood. She is poorly fed in the family, semi-finished products, takeways. The phone and gadgets were taken away in retaliation for her complaint at school. Academic performance has decreased significantly. The first year in secondary school ended. It all started phenomenally. There were class grades, and then academic performance fell and attendance. She comes to class in tears.

Her mother decided to go outside London and take her to a private school, but her daughter likes to live in the centre of London, where she has a bunch of girlfriends around, she loves her school. Why a private school? Mom says wants to protect her from the bad influence of her girlfriends. It's not clear how she can enrol her in a private school - they're selective. The first year of study has already passed.

I realised that until the age of 16, a child cannot determine who to live with by law. It's up to the parents to decide. If not, the court steps in. The child's opinion is taken into account, but other factors are also taken into account.

Of course, I was stunned by this situation. I live quietly by myself outside London for very cheap and haven't been working for a long time. It takes me an hour and a half to get to this school. That is, I will need to first find a job, and permanent, and then rent a two-room apartment in very central areas for at least 2,500 pounds with bills to make her come to school by bus within 30 minutes. That's not done by clicking, but doable.

Her mother is very defiant - says that her parents often beat her in her family and that's normal. In fact, they say her mother would have peeled off her daughter much more. That "many parents are beating children and there's nothing wrong with that." I said that my parents didn't touch me with a finger as a child. That I would be offended and remember it. I told the mother that it was necessary to operate with reason, not by force. She answered - well, what's wrong with that, because her daughter laughed in response to her physical aggression. I noticed her that it was a defensive reaction. After all, her daughter couldn't answer her. Yes, she seems to be stunned and laughed.

Mom said that her daughter's move to me would be a blow. She said that she lived with her daughter all her life, and I fell off when my daughter was one year old. But I told her that it often happens that daughters conflict with their mothers and then do not put up. That what worked with a child may not work with a teenager.

In general, I don't know. Of course, if the daughter asks, I must help. On the other hand, won't I wear it on my own? It's bad that I was not ready for such a situation. Now they will try to sort it out. But the litter has been taken out of the hut. It seems to me that a serious fault has arisen. They will no longer have trust. Now mom will try to serve, but now she will be implicitly tense. It has probably taken a serious pressure on my daughter to put her complaint forward and involve the school.

Technically, if you study before university, there are exactly six years left in the same very nice school. Then the university is three years . That is, at the age of 18, she will probably no longer live at home if the university is not in the capital. It's a six-year task for me and her mother anyway. Of course, her mother clearly has a proprietary instinct, but her daughter is already a person with her own opinion. Mom claims that she has never beaten her except in this case. But now I'm beginning to have doubts. That's new information for me. The daughter did not talk about the incident.

What will be the best strategy now? I am concerned that there may be a point of no return. The baby's nerves will be spoiled.

 

[Ash]

I hear you and it's concerning. One reason Mother's don't like kids living with Dads is - it means they no longer get the child benefits or CMS payments from Dad. Money essentially. It's a few thousand a year. So the Mother is never going to agree probably. You said the school involved social services. The only way you will get anywhere with this is if your daughter tells social services that her Mother beats her. Otherwise you need evidence such as a video recording. Work with social services. If social services decide she's not safe there then they may advise you to put an urgent application into court for a residency order. You can worry about schools as part of that, if it comes to that.

Your daughter has tried to exert some independence and has been squashed by your ex and will feel less confident at exerting her independence now she's been thrown in at the deep end at a new school away from all her friends and teachers who know her.

I suspect the school move has mainly been because the school reported to social services. Is it in a different local authority too? That's a trick a parent can play - local authorities don't usually pass cases over to another local authority.

I would contact social services yourself - ask to speak to the social worker dealing with the case and say your daughter has told you she is being beaten and your ex has admitted it and says this is normal.

The difficulty is - social services are overloaded, and frankly, not always much help. They wouldn't remove a child unless there was "immediate risk of harm". I was once told - they won't do anything unless your child is hospitalized. I am not sure if that's correct but it was pretty shocking. If social services go there and see no cuts and bruises and everything seems normal at home they may well find "no issues". They can even put things down to "different parenting styles". A parent is allowed to choose their own form of discipline and smacking a child is not illegal. Unless it leaves a mark. This is wrong in my view and smacking should be made illegal because it can lead to more than just smacking. Or they can hit round the head to avoid leaving a mark.

Even if your daughter has bruises and your ex says "she fell over" they might accept that. Unless your daughter tells them what really happened but she probably wouldn't do that, while at home with her Mother when social services are there.

It's concerning because your daughter may not trust telling schools anything again now she has seen her Mother has had the power to remove her from her school - and especially if social services close the case - either because they have found no issues at home, or because your daughter is no longer within their local authority.

If you applied to family court for a residence order (and to return her to her old school) you would need evidence that your daughter is at risk of harm - that evidence would need to be from social services.

The main thing at the moment, perhaps, is to do what you can to protect your daughter. The courts are unlikely to ever stop her seeing both parents, even if she did live with you. Unless there is proven abuse. You need to keep seeing her regularly.

You said she wouldn't say anything last time. She is maybe scared of repercussions. She has already told school and seen what happened. I would at least say to her that if anyone ever hits her, she should go to the police. That's pretty hard for a 13 year old to do.

Has the school move happened yet?

 

[Ash]

If the school move hasn't happened yet you could put in an urgent specific issues and prohibited steps application regarding schooling. Assuming you have parental responsibility (ie were married to the Mother or your name was on the birth certificate if you weren't married).

Your ex isn't allowed to unilaterally choose a school without your consent. They do it, but you can stop it - at the same time you can raise the issues surrounding it. Yes they will take the child's wishes into account - and your daughter may tell Cafcass what's going on. Or she may have been intimidated out of it by then. Coached to say something else.

In a way your ex has been quite clever by choosing a private school - because that will be deemed to be a better school. But your argument could be that your daughter was only just settling in at secondary school and was doing very well. You would need to highlight that the change of school occurred after your daughter informed the school of abuse at her Mother's home and that this is a welfare issue. But anything you say will be taken as "he said she said" (ie anyone could be lying) unless you have solid evidence from social services. So you really need to work with social services - contact them and tell them your concerns and that daughter has told you she is being beaten. Ask them to talk to daughter at school, away from the Mother's home.

Have you ever seen any signs of her being beaten? If the school move has already happened it's unlikely they'll change that.

It's unfair on kids in these situations generally. Even if your daughter told the courts she wanted to live with you, they might suspect you had put her up to it. They are very reluctant to change residence. Unless there are serious welfare issues (which need to be proved). They are more likely to do a shared care order. (ie lives with both parents).

Your ex's reaction is to feel threatened and try to exclude you by making it harder for your daughter to see you. This is wrong but it's been her reaction to keep control.

I hear you - my son is 14. It's another four years before they are legally independent adults. Yes at 16 they can choose who to live with - technically - but they are still dependent on parents - to some degree and it depends whether your daughter has by then improved her relationship with her Mother (or been tempted by lots of treats to want to stay there and has developed a normal life there). The "beatings" can be used as coercion too. "If you do what I say you won't get beaten" type thing.

So right now - deal with social services. Try and find out the name of the social worker. "Talking to the Mother" is pathetic - it might even just be a phone call and your ex say everything is fine (and blame you and accuse you of things). It might be a visit and them see no issues at that visit. You need to ask them to talk to your daughter, away from the Mother, at school.

Keep us posted.

 

[Sepul]

Thank you for the responses. My daughter still goes to the same school and lives in the same place. Her mother just played with the idea of relocating out of London and also changing the school. I was not aware of her ideas, my daughter told me about them. I have spoken to the mother and she could not say how certain she is about these changes. My travel to get to my daughter will double if that move occurs. The main thing is that my daughter feels very attached to that school and to the area (very central). She simply loves it.

I was not married to her mother and she refused to put my name on the birth certificate. I do not have any parental responsibility agreements in place. I have no legal docs to show my relationship to her. My daughter has never told me about any beatings, but she has recently told the school and the school has told social services. Her mother admitted, but sounded very defiant saying that she herself “was beaten much more in her childhood”. I saw bruises on her legs in the past, but my daughter did not tell me about any beatings. The school and social services are located in adjacent boroughs.

I have spoken to social services, they say that they will assign someone to it and later speak to me about the next steps. The lady has told me that they will probably need to have some education for the mother to set “parental boundaries”. She has said that they will speak to us all again, but I am not sure where and how. I will ask them to clarify it to me. I will try to speak to my daughter later. She is now away in a kids camp for a week. I need to gauge how certain she is to move with me. I am quite confused and not sure whether I should hire someone to deal with it.

 

[Ash]

Ok if you’re not on the birth certificate you’d need to apply to court to get parental responsibility. It should be quite straightforward. If the Mother agrees you’re the Father. If she doesn’t then the court would order a DNA test.

However usually a Dad only applies for this of they’re applying to court at the same time for a Child Arrangements order or other order.

I am thinking that you maybe need to be applying for a prohibited steps order to prevent your ex changing daughter’s school without the courts permission, citing what you’ve said and also how it would frustrate daughter’s relationship time with you.

But as mentioned above - the way things are at the moment it’s good to deal with social services and get a closure report from them (so you have evidence and to what is going on).

As I suspected they wouldn’t recommend change of residency - it’s fairly typical that they “support the Mother” whereas if it was a Dad they would tell the Mother to stop “contact “ and apply to court.

Double standards.

With all that in mind you don’t really have grounds for an application for your daughter to live with you but you might have grounds for 50/50 shared care, lives with both parents.

How often does your daughter see you currently?

 

[Ash]

I will think about this - what you don’t want is to suddenly find your ex has moved your daughter’s school.

It maybe that you need to put an application in on a C100 for a Child Arrangements order for shared care, plus prohibited steps to stop school change plus an additional form to ask for PR to be awarded. As part of that application, Cafcass do checks and wheh they know social services are involved they will speak to them - they also speak to the school. This could be helpful for you.

You need to keep that time and relationship solid for the next three years. When she turns 16 she can choose to live with you of her own accord.

Do you have anything in writing (text or email) about this threat of school change, or has it all been verbal?

Before you can make any applications though you have to have tried mediation (which rarely works and seems bizarre when the Mother is physically hitting your daughter). The only legal requirement though is to attend a first mediation session on your own and be signed off.

 

[Ash]

That was very brave of your daughter to tell the school.

 

[Sepul]

I heard about the potential changes of school and location from my daughter a couple a days ago. Her mum has confirmed it to me when we spoke on the phone, but she could not say how certain she is. My daughter has revealed that her mum has been talking about it for years and these conversations have disturbed my daughter a lot. I see my daughter once or twice a month, I took her for quite long times during the lockdowns and all was good. Sometimes she stayed with me for weeks.

Yes, I think that it would make sense to do all legal things in one go. For now I have no rights at all.

 

[Sepul]

That was very brave of your daughter to tell the school.

I agree. I am very proud of her. She came to the school in tears, they spoke to her and she told them about the beating. They have referred it to the social services. Now it is on records.

 

[Ash]

Ok. So history makes a difference with court applications as well. If you separated when she was a year old and it's only been a couple of visits a month since, they will deem that the Mother is the resident parent and although you may get a slight increase in time with a regular schedule, they are not likely to make it 50/50 unless something serious has happened. Now something serious has happened but social services are saying they can "educate" the ex and resolve the issue.

If your daughter spent long periods of time with you during the lockdowns, that may be why she decided she wanted to live with you. She got to know you more, and also she had a taste of a normal life - ie being in one place most of the time.

I think all kids, especially when they get to teens, and however much they love both parents, probably long to have a full time home without back and forth schedules. It's difficult for them because they still want and need both parents - ie don't want to lose a parent. So it can take some careful parenting from both parents to say it's important they see both parents regularly, but parents can be flexible and swap days now and then if she wants. Now that only works if both parents can be reasonable, get on and put the child's interests first. But in many situations (which is why we're usually on here) - an ex will just put their own needs first and want to be in control.

It can be difficult to know what's going on with teenagers. Her Mum shouldn't hit her. And that may have come about because your daughter said she wanted to live with you (just putting ideas out there) - because it made your ex feel angry and rejected. That's if your daughter did say that to your ex. ie your ex trying to intimidate your daughter out of saying such things. Because your ex probably knows/fears that courts take seriously what a child's wishes are at this age. So she fears losing her.

This is just me surmising. If your ex thinks your daughter might "choose" to live with you when she's 16 she may do something to try and prevent that before it happens. Like make it harder for you to see your daughter and make sure your daughter gets used to only having a life with her and loses that desire to change things.

One thing I'd say is - be careful talking to your ex, about things your daughter has told you, that your ex didn't tell you. Like when your daughter told you about the school situation. Once your ex knew daughter had told you, daughter could be punished for telling you.

I learned this the hard way and my son stopped telling me things, for fear I'd let it slip to his Mother and he'd get punished. I tried to make it right again and let him know it was a private conversation with me and in confidence. But as part of court applications ex learned things about his life here too and tried to spoil them.

Basically he now no longer trusts telling me things - because he thinks something may inadvertently get back to ex. I learned from that too and in subsequent court applications was careful to keep things very general. Having said that, there is an unspoken understanding - he just doesn't want to be in the position of being in the middle and getting flack - understandably.

If your daughter told you about the possible school move, and your ex hadn't discussed it before, that's because your ex either didn't want you to know, or just believes she can make unilateral choices and you have no say.

Your daughter may have been warning you about this in the hope it might not happen. So all I'm saying is - be careful what you say to your ex, because in attempting to be a normal co parent, you're dealing with someone with a different agenda and daughter took a risk telling you too.

My son did the same when my ex was planning to move further away - he told me because he didn't want it to happen, knowing he'd get flack for telling me. Which worried me silly. On that occasion a solicitor's letter was sent but it still dropped my son in it (because it had to say how I knew it was on the cards).

You almost have to think like a detective in these situations and work out a plan that deals with the situation without the kid getting too much flack from the other parent.

So - I would take this school move as a serious possibility. You can't really trust what your ex has said, and to be frank, if social services are involved with the family, your ex now has good reason to move quickly to a different local authority (my ex did that). It was only later I learned why social services hadn't followed through. It sounds ridiculous but once it's outside their LA area they don't deal with it and they don't pass it on either.

Likewise when Cafcass do checks they only check with the LA that the Mother lives in at that time. After a third application to court I had to tell Cafcass - you need to check with this LA as well.

Playing devil's advocate, your ex must be absolutely furious that she has brought your daughter up since she was 1 and feel resentful that she now says she wants to live with you. On the other hand perhaps your ex could have allowed a lot more time for daughter with you all those years. Was that your ex decision that you only saw your daughter a couple of times a month or were you happy with that?

Basically what I'm saying is - I don't think the courts would transfer residency. a) because of the history of time b) because social services won't recommend it - they are "educating" the Mother instead c) because it would almost have to be a situation where your daughter's life was at immediate risk for transfer of residency to happen (or your ex on drugs and incapable of parenting or something like that). They are keen to keep children with Mothers - and don't see both parents the same unfortunately.

So it needs thinking carefully about. You either do nothing. Let social services deal with things, keep seeing your daughter as before and let her know, privately, that one day, if she wants to, she can come and live with you when she's 16 but for now there isn't much can be done about things. And hope this school move doesn't happen - and manage things if it does.

Or - you can go via a court route. But your ex will probably be extremely angry and may pressurise your daughter into saying she doesn't want to see you. It depends what your ex is like.

The tricky thing with court orders when they get to this age is, even if the court made an order to say daughter spends 5 nights out of 14 with you, shared care. Your ex may just not follow it and claim daughter is refusing to come and she can't make her. ie your daughter be witheld. You can then enforce that order - but courts are very slow these days since the pandemic - and by that time your daughter could be 14 going on 15 and the courts just not do very much. That is a slight risk - sometimes a judge will be robust and make a strong order so the Mother has an incentive to make sure daughter comes. But other times they could be fooled by daughter saying - she doesn't want to come (if daughter has been pressurised).

It is incredibly difficult. I also have a teenager. You know your ex and what she's capable of and whether she is that manipulative or not. And whether she is the type who would do anything to "win". But by the sound of it, she is capable of being abusive physically to make daughter do what she wants (and delude herself this is normal discipline even though it's inappropriate when there's another parent in daughter's life), so she might be equally capable of threats. ie if you don't say this it will be worse for you.

So I'm just painting scenarios there. If your daughter ran away at this age. And your ex has sole residency, it's possible the police would take her back to her Mother's again. If it was a shared care order and your daughter refused to go back, then the Police may not be able to take her back to her Mother's again.

So on balance, I'd say going to court has it's risks. However, a prohibited steps order for a school move is an urgent application - you should have a hearing within a week and it can be possible to get everything sorted in one or two hearings within a few months.

A low key application about schools, and to get parental responsibility, and for an order for slightly more time with daughter, would probably be best. The difficulty is timing. If you wait till social services have closed the case, that could be some time, and in the meantime your ex could have moved and moved the schools. If you apply before social services have closed the case, you don't have evidence (closure report) - but on the other hand you can inform Cafcass that social services are involved - which could help your case when it's about the Mother.

 

[Ash]

So I'm thinking all this through here .................

Only you can know if the threat to move further away and change schools, is just a threat for leverage, or a real threat. The fact your ex didn't tell you about it though (you only heard from daughter) means it could be a real threat. Unless your ex is playing games and told daughter to tell you as some kind of fear tactic.

On balance I think you need to take it as a serious threat. That means you either try to sort it out so it doesn;t happen, or, as you said earlier, you accept you may have to change your life drastically to be nearer your daughter.

I personally think it would be highly inappropriate for your daughter to move schools after this has happened. The current school will be keeping an eye on things. The new school might not know anything that's happened.

Sorry to ramble on

I think I would put the urgent application in for specific issues/prohibited steps, for PR to be formalised, and for a Child Arrangements order. It would be a 48 hour application (but these days that could take a week or two but that's still fast!)

Technically, with an urgent application, you don't need to have had a MIAM (first mediation application) but it's better if you've had one - to make sure the application doesn't get rejected on those grounds.

So first thing would be google family mediators in the area, ring round them and say you need an urgent appointment. You might get one next day. The first appointment is to inform you what mediation can do and hear about the situation. The mediator will almost always try to heavily persuade you to try mediation, but you can just say - I want signing off because it's urgent. You need to politely stick to your guns with that. If they keep trying to persaude and say they can sort it out then say you think it's inappropriate right now because your ex is being investigated for child abuse by social services. Stick to your guns. What you need is a sign off form that goes in the C100 application to the court, for the order.

That form is actually part of the C100 - you can print it out and take it with you and ask them to sign you off on the day. Sometimes they will. Sometimes they'll be difficult and say they have to send it to you in the post or something. Reiterate that this is an urgent application. When they send it in the post it's the exact same form!


So download a copy of the C100 form and print out page 9. Once the form is downloaded you can complete it on computer and edit/amend it/ save it as you go along. Then print it out when it's finished (you need 3 copies to post to court so either print 3 copies or photocopy it). There is an online application as well. Which might be easier. I usually say do the paper copy because there is an option to tick that child lives with both parents (which there isn't on the online form).

When there are no court orders in place, neither parent legally has residency - you are both equal. Although they might view it that daughter lives with Mother due to the history I think I would still tick that she lives with both of you and do the paper form. Even though the paper form is more tedious. And because you'd be asking for an order for "lives with both parents".

Normally for lives with both (as opposed to lives with Mother and "spends time with" Father - it needs to be about a third of the time - eg usually no less than 5 nights a fortnight with you. Five nights a fortnight would be every other weekend from Friday to Monday morning, and one midweek overnight - usually a Wednesday but you could ask for a different one.

50/50 would be the same except it would be two consecutive midweek nights. Either mon/tues or wed/thurs.

So one week your daughter would have 5 nights with each parent (the 3 night week-end with the 2 midweek nights tacked on the beginning or end) and the alternate week she'd have 2 nights (the two midweek nights). That's a 2-2-5-5 schedule.

Just wondering how far you are from ex's home and daughter's school? Would it be possible to pick her up from school a couple of nights a week? Or for her to get a bus to your house from school?

Anyway once you have your MIAM certificate to go in the C100 application form, you use the same form for all three - specific issues re school, prohibited steps to prevent daughter being moved further away, and Child Arrangements.

That needs putting in the box on the front page. Section 5 b is the important bit as that's the wording for your application and needs a bit of thought. It's not a big box so just type "please see attached sheet" in there and draft some wording. As it's an urgent application on a specific issue you could do a couple of pages and attach any evidence. Normally you can't attach evidence - the evidence would only be regarding the schools issue at this stage.

Plus the form to apply for PR to go with it. Part of the application wording would need to be a brief background/history. The advantage you have is having been in your daughter's life consistently for years, even if not for that much time.

Once everything is completed and you have swapped over page 9 of the form with the mediator signed version, you can either post it to court or take it in and wait. I've sometimes done the latter for an urgent application as by waiting I've been given the court papers and date to take away with me - because it's an urgent application. It might be different these days.

What would happen then is - your ex would be notified by the court that there is a hearing and she will be sent a copy of your application. She has the opportunity to respond on a form.

One risk there is, if your ex makes allegations against you. But considering social services are already investigating her, I think you'd be ok there.

It could be an idea to let social services know you've submitted an application to court (when you have) to ensure continued time with daughter, and ask them to keep an eye on things in case your ex becomes very angry.

How to complete the C100 Form

We thought a guide to completing the form could be useful. This is the C100 form for applying for a Child Arrangements Order, Specific Issues Order or Prohibited Steps Order. C100 form on .Gov website If you scroll down the page you will see...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

Sample wording for C100 application

Attached are two versions of sample wording for section 5b of the C100 form. The sample wording assumes it's for a Child Arrangements Application. One version is more of a straightforward application. The other version is more for if...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

I need to check on whether you need a separate form to apply for PR as well or whether it can be done as part of the C100 application.

 

[Ash]

Anyway - ignore most of my waffling above. I think you absolutely need to apply for a 50/50 shared care order. Your daughter informed the school of abuse and social services are involved - which makes the risk of moving away an even greater risk to your daughter.

I know another Dad who had a similar thing not so long back. His 14 year old told school stepparent had been hitting them. He applied for residency and got 50/50 shared care. Difference was he saw his kids a lot more often than you have, hence applying for residency. As part of the 50/50 measures were in place. You could possibly apply for residency "on a near 50/50 basis". Need to think about that. You could also get a free half hour's legal advice from a solicitor. Or 2 or 3 free half hour's with 2 or 3 different solicitors. They'll usually do it on the phone - then you can weigh up what they say. Some are dreadful - some are ok. I found it was the third one I spoke to that seemed to have their head screwed on.

 

[Ash]

Basically always ask for more than you want so there's room to negotiate down to less time (or for Cafcass to recommend less than you've asked for).

While I don't think you'll get residency - it could still be the right thing to apply for "on a near 50/50 basis" and then accept 50/50 shared care instead.

 

[Ash]

Basically you'd be showing you want to protect your daughter, while not being negative about the ex and going along with social services "therapy" with ex. If you get the shared care order at least it would be much easier for your daughter to run away or you to keep her there, if anything else bad happens.

 

[Ash]

Looking at your thread title "daughter doesn't want to live with Mum" it's fairly obvious why not, if she is giving her beatings.

 

[Sepul]

Thank you for the advice! The mother has said that she left the daughter for a week in the kids’ Christian camp on Sunday. I tried to call my daughter’s mobile - no response (several rings and then it goes to voicemail), to send an sms - no response, to call on Whatsapp - no response, texted on Whatsapp - I see one grey tick, which means that my message was not technically received.

The mother told me that my daughter would have access to her phone during the kids camp. I have tried to contact the mother - she does not respond to anything - I see that my Whatsapp message was technically received by her - two grey ticks. Unfortunately, I saw you advice too late and told many things to the mother yesterday. I am concerned that she can retaliate. Typically, if you complain that your boss bullied you - he or she are immediately prohibited to come to work and contact victims - while the investigation is ongoing. I am not sure if I should talk to the police.

I will try to reach social services and to talk to her school tomorrow. I spoke to one solicitor - she has advised to act in the same way as you suggested. She said that her services would cost thousands, but that I can also do all the forms myself. I am still thinking may be to pay her for one hour at around £250 to check my application. She solicitor got concerned that my daughter is now in that camp and told me to tell social services about it. I did not do it yesterday.

 

[Sepul]

If my daughter told me on Friday that she was beaten - I would not return her back. But she did not tell me. She told the school about it in her initial complaint. I wish she would tell me about it as well. I only heard her mother’s version in that regard, that it was “only once and only on hands”. That is, in her view I would have known from my daughter that was beaten many times. But my daughter did not tell me even about one incident. That is, my daughter’s true story may be very different and potentially much worse than the mother's version.

 

[Sepul]

I have managed to talk to the mother (she was very reluctant to talk, but I sent her messages through all channels), she said that the daughter may have limited access to her phone in that camp. I have texted the daughter to give me a call back when she can - still no response. The mother wants to pick her up from the camp - she will probably travel there with her husband. It will be a five hour journey back. But she mentioned that I can pick her up once she is at home. The mother does not want me to pick the daughter up his since “it may be confusing”.

I will try to find a good, but not outrageously expensive solicitor. Any recommentions would be helpful. I think that it would make sense to ask for full care and then negotiate. At the moment, I have no docs and this is so disturbing. I wanted my name to be on the birth certificate, but the mother refused many times. I did not want to spoil the relationship with the mother by insisting because I could take my daughter whenever I wanted - although for the last year and a half - without overnight stays at my place. In person my daughter agreed to come to my place, but refused in her text messages. In 2020, she spend probably two months at my place in total.

I am not sure why there was a change in stays. Theoretically, the mother might have become jealous of her daughter spending time with me and praising me all the time to her. My daughter told me that it is always very interesting with me, that we have many topics in common, that she attributed her top grades in geography and philosophy to our conversations, that she praised my healthy food at home, my varied interests. We visited probably 30 museums and galleries in London, went to lots of musicals and high level restaurants. We have recently been to top-notch concerts together as well. I brought her to many sport activities - karting, volleyball, skating.

I also now recall that a social worker volonteer worked with my daughter two years ago. She was referred by her primary school to this service. I have never completely understood the reason for this referral. The lady came to spend time with my daughter - go to museums and movies. I have never seen this lady and have not make any inquiries with the school to find out the reason since her mother convinced me that there is nothing to worry about. Here is that charity - https://thekidsnetwork.org.uk/

This situation has convinced me that I should have all docs for my daughter in order at the earliest.

Stepfather: is it possible to request a criminal check on him (DBS)? He lives with my daughter and I have no clue who he is. The mother has never formally introduced him to me. It would be also useful to have a copy of his passport. I have noticed that he is quite critical of my daughter, saying to me that she will grow up and become much worse. When he criticised her, the mother kept silence. She did not defend my daughter, which was surprising for me. I did not want to argue with him, but such an attitude has concerned me - he should teach and criticise his kids, not other people’s kids. BTW, he does not have any kids and the mother will unlikely have any more. Otherwise, she would have many by now since she always wanted to have many kids. I am not sure whether he sexually abused my daughter, but I would not be surprised by now. It is difficult for me to probe on such topics with her since she does not stay at my place, where she can truly relax.

Actually, I am happy to easily spend £3,000 on this case to ensure that all is ok. Is it best for me to do all through the solicitor? I have found one nice lady in my town, she spent 30 minutes of her time with me for free. She sounded very thorough and empathic to me. Or is it better to draft all on my own and just let her check?

 

[Ash]

You don't need to pay a solicitor to check your forms. We can help with that on here. I've done all my own applications. The important part is the wording. If a solicitor does the forms they tend to be very minimal with the wording and I've found it actually works better if it's in your own words - providing you keep to the right tone and content. That initial application wording is read by Cafcass so it's like a "first impression".

Yes contact social services and say your daughter is away at a camp and you have no contact. In some ways, being at a camp for a week might be good for her. Unless it's some kind of cult type place! I think the main details you need from the Mother are:

The name and address of the camp and organiser, and their contact phone number.

I would put that in a text fairly casually (so you have it in writing) to your ex.

Eg just text saying something like

Would be grateful if you could give me the name and address of the camp where daughter is and the contact details of the organiser please. I don't intend to go there to collect her, but would like to speak to them to check how she is doing.

My son went on a couple of school trips and they wouldn't let them use their phones. When is she due back? Try not to worry, it's probably just a normal thing for the school holidays.

It sounds like your ex is maybe a bit concerned about all this, with you asking questions, if she's said daughter can come and see you when she gets back. You need to be careful with the amount of communication right now.

If you're intending to apply to court then yes things may not be so amicable. Which is why they suggest trying mediation first. The problem with this situation is, trust has been broken. Whatever the Mother says, you can't rely on her not hitting your daughter again. In fact you can't rely on anything she says really - of course she will minimise it. There's a difference between being hit on the hands and a beating.

If you have a look at the C100 form (I attached the link) and start filling it in, it helps to feel you've started the process. Most of it is a straightforward form asking for basic details. It's important to tick the right boxes of course. And the other important bit is the wording at 5b.

The tricky bit in your situation is the front page where it asks if there is any harm or abuse. If you don't tick that then you're doing a straight application as if there is none. If you do tick that, you also need to submit a C1A form outlining the issues and attaching any evidence (eg a social services report or at least the number of the social worker). The problem with that is, your ex will see it as a hostile action. You might need to just accept that things are not going to be friendly over this. They might settle down again later.

In fact if you're applying to court for her to live with you and citing what has happened, then it's perfectly reasonable to try and protect her. You can still sound positive about her relationships with both parents and say social services are offering support to the Mother. And state what is happening, but keep the tone factual and low key so it's not like a personal attack on your ex, but expressing the concerns about your daughter.

As regards the Stepfather. Technically, it is up to your ex who she decides is safe to be around your daughter, and unless your daughter has disclosed any abuse by him you have nothing to go on there. It could look bad if you want to start intruding on his personal life and checking up on his when there have been no allegations against him. But what you want is social services to keep being involved with your daughter and talking to her, in case she opens up more.

So you need:


The C100 form

On it, on the front page you ask for a specific issues order, a prohibited steps order and a Child Arrangements order for your daughter to live with you and spend time with the Mother on a near 50/50 basis with support. And a parental responsibility order.

You complete the basic form. Your wording for 5b then needs to include what you want for each order and why and a brief description of the circumstances - to prevent your daughter being moved away, prevent a school move and the need for the Child Arrangements order. You tick 48 hour hearing under urgent hearing.

You also need to complete a C1A to go with that form - to give details of what has happened (ie your daughter telling the school and social services being involved). That is a shorter form. I'll link that below. You can attach evidence (if you have any) to the C1A - or at least give the social worker's phone number and anything else you've had in writing from them or the school - if you have anything. And because it's an urgent application for prohibited steps you can attach evidence relating to the possible move or school move (if you have any - eg a text or email).

Form C1A: Provide supplemental information when making or responding to allegations of harm and domestic violence

Tell the court about harm that you, a child or children have suffered or are at risk of suffering, or use this form to respond to any allegations made by the other person in their application.

www.gov.uk

 

[Ash]

Just reviving your thread Sepal. Aware you've had a couple of hearings. Can you update us on the current situation because I am sure you will get a lot of support from other Dads who have been through very similar things (false allegations just before a hearing).