Court in Peterborough - order - not to contact my children

[Seb]

Hi everyone,
I’m sad to hear of so many situations on this forum where I’ve found myself almost identical affected and I’m intrigued by the court rulings and decisions where the children are trapped in the middle and still suffering.
On my case, it has been going on since 2013, when I divorced their mother after I found out she’s been seen other men.
I’ll try to be minimise my story with the main picture.
We had live-in childminders for most of the time and the children were 4, 7 and 10 at that time.
I’ve been back to courts 4 times to rectify the disagreements related with her ways of disrespecting the orders.
We both lived in London most of the time and the first 3 orders up to 2018, gave me the rights to see the children every other weekend picking them up from school on Fridays and dropping them back at school on Mondays, half of the holidays and also had the parental rights to stay involved into the school and other activities of the children.
The oldest child started living with me from the early of 2016 after the mother kicked him out following an disagreement.

It all changed when the mother remarried in 2019, sold the house I purchased first in London and moved in the Norfolk county buying a new house.

She picked the younger children from my place after the summer holidays on the 2nd of September 2019 and I did not seen them since.

The mother moved the children’s school without telling me a thing and did not want to mediate a new plan to update the arrangements.

After few months, I’ve been given my daughter’s school details by the Norfolk council and booked and attended a meeting with the headteacher.

I found that, there were allegations against me and they were very serious like: I’m an alcoholic, I’ve beaten her during the marriage and the children, that she moved out of London running away from me.

Meanwhile, I was advised by the police and by the social services to go back to court to regain my contact. I’ve applied with another C100 application and the Peterborough court.

I’ve provided physical evidence about the false allegations. On her statement, she even said that I have been abusive to the headteacher and their school staff. A direct statement from the headteacher has proved how our meeting went on and no staff has been abused.
Despite bringing also evidence showing my daughter crying on social media of missing me, the child guardian said that is not the case and actually the children do not want to see me anymore.

The judge ignored all my evidence of being a good provider and the benefits of me been involved into their upbringing as always involved and ignored the previous orders and granted all the mother’s requests.
I’m not allowed to contact them direct or indirect.
The reason was that the children do not want to see me anymore which is really against my evidence showing my conversations via texts with my daughter during the trials, where she was clearly expressing her wishes to come and see her little step sister.
I was not allowed to apply to court for 2 years.

Occasionally, I did manage to speak with my daughter via social apps- texts, sending her a Happy Birthday message or telling her I miss her so much but she’s totally rejecting me now after so long and looks really annoyed of me calling me a stalker or a sick bastard. She complained about making her mother suffer dragging her through courts and if I contact her, she’ll loose the rights to stay on social apps… She’s saying she’s having a better house and she doesn’t need me anymore…

I don’t blame the children at all, as I know where all these reactions are coming from, but the alienation against me has been so obvious but ignored by the legal institutions…

Do I have no more rights to see my children anymore?
I’m dying inside and wake up crying thinking of them. How far can this nightmare go? These people got no remorse of their actions and that affect generations of families. Disconnecting the children from their roots are killing the family spirit and pure care and love.

I’m not alone in this, I feel blessed having a supportive wife and another princess daughter. But I can not give up
on my other children. They also bonded very well but we’ve been separated by this insecure system afraid to take acknowledge about the real facts whiteout bothering to investigate the allegations and make it easier leaving other unprepared personal to decide the faith of the children.
There are so many distinctive errors in the system and in the people’s actions where you only need to apply the “common sense” rule. But for some, maybe is too much asking…

I can not find many advises around. Some say to take their mother to court for false allegations that lead breaking my relationship with my children.
Some say to apply again with C100.

Any advise will be much appreciated as these 2 year ban to apply to court should come to an end…
I haven’t hug my 2 children since 2nd of September 2019…

Thank you.

 

[Ash]

Hello and I am very sorry to hear this. The story is common - when an ex remarried and moves away and tries to cut you out. When she took the kids in September 2019, did you apply to have the current order varied?

When was the last time you applied to court. Something has gone wrong somewhere because if you had years of trouble free parenting before she moved , that should be recognised when her allegations are conveniently made years later. One thing I do know is that Cafcass can be difficult to deal with and while a Mother’s allegations are taken seriously, if a Father makes any he can be seen as “aggressive “ and attacking the ex.

This is a really bad case of parental alienation snd you’re correct that courts don’t get this sometimes- especially Cafcass and even most solicitors and barristers.

When it is simply a case of (probably) your ex killing two birds with one stone a) gets to have a normal life with a new man and no annoying schedules b) doesn’t like the kids having a Stepmum and a half sibling (threatens her sense of being the only important woman in their lives and fear that the kids may prefer it with you and your partner).

What about the oldest one. Does he still live with you? Or did he go with his Mother as well.

With the distance you would probably have got every other week end and half the school holidays. When was the order made banning you from applying to court for two years. It’s possible to appeal that within a certain time frame.

 

[Ash]

An order for no contact at all is quite extreme. Cafcass sometimes recommend that when they consider there is high conflict between the parents which is harmful to the children. What they don’t get is that one parent has an agenda and is deliberately creating conflict to get that result. You can’t stop your ex being high conflict and the things usually advised are always present as the calm child focused one and don’t retaliate.

I don’t know if you can apply to court on a C100 again if you’ve been ordered not to apply again for two years. It depends on how recent that order is. If it’s within timescale you appeal then I would appeal it and, if you can afford it, use a good barrister. If you can’t afford it, which many of us can’t, then you need a lot of help. We can help with wording of statements and managing your case or wording applications but if you are having to self rep face to face and don’t feel confident about that it can help to have a barrister to speak for you and argue your case. Many Dads have successfully self repped. I personally am not good at representing myself being quiet - I am better on paper.

 

[Ash]

Just re read and I am guessing the two years no applications allowed has come to an end - I’d that right?

As I see it you have two options - and not much middle ground.

1) You go the whole hog and apply for residency- ie for the children to live with you and spend time with their Mother. If you can afford it, use a good parental alienation barrister. Citing the Mother is unable or willing to follow court orders and has turned the children against you.

2) You weigh things up, Going through court for another year or more - your children being back on the court process. They must be teenagers by now? And try to make contact when they’re older.

Personally I would go with number one. But I think you need help after this time.

One nasty trick that some of these exes pull is waiting till the children are over 12 - in their teens. When their own wishes are taken seriously. And if PA isn’t picked up then those wishes are taken as actual wishes of the children.

The other thing is the court are extremely unlikely to make any orders for a child of 16 or older. At 13 or 14 it’s not too late to try.

 

[Seb]

Just re read and I am guessing the two years no applications allowed has come to an end - I’d that right?

As I see it you have two options - and not much middle ground.

1) You go the whole hog and apply for residency- ie for the children to live with you and spend time with their Mother. If you can afford it, use a good parental alienation barrister. Citing the Mother is unable or willing to follow court orders and has turned the children against you.

2) You weigh things up, Going through court for another year or more - your children being back on the court process. They must be teenagers by now? And try to make contact when they’re older.

Personally I would go with number one. But I think you need help after this time.

One nasty trick that some of these exes pull is waiting till the children are over 12 - in their teens. When their own wishes are taken seriously. And if PA isn’t picked up then those wishes are taken as actual wishes of the children.

The other thing is the court are extremely unlikely to make any orders for a child of 16 or older. At 13 or 14 it’s not too late to try.

Hi,
Thank you for the replies.
After she picked up the children and did not want to give me the new schools details, I’ve been advised by the social services to apply again to court as they did not have anymore involvements as our case was closed with children been in good care on both places.
I’ve applied again with a C100 form in October 2019. (Just wanted to re-establish the contact)
The first hearing was on 2nd of January 2020 (with the case been moved from the Central family Court in London where I applied to the Peterborough Court where children are now residing within their borough). Delays have been incurred due the lockdown and the final hearing had take place via video-call on the 5th-6th of October 2020.
A child guardian and a child solicitor have been appointed. Apparently, they kept sustaining that the children do not want to see me anymore. Even after I showed them my conversations with my daughter where she express clearly missing us and wanted to surprise her sister on her birthday. There were lots of flows in their reports and their representatives kept changing and presented unfinished reports to the court without any investigations into the false accusations.
Still I’m surprised by the fact, the judge did not had any say on her own. Despite all the provided evidence of the instigation, my involvement over the years with the children, statements from family members, neighbours, people that could tell the reality that happened during the marriage or purely the fact that I’ve proved she lied and made fake accusations, still ignored and said it’s what the children want.

My oldest son lived with me from Feb 2016 till July 2020. I was encouraging the children to grow up together and not separated. It was already too much for them seen their parents divorcing. At least they could have each other to bond stronger. When my oldest son had an argument with his mother, he was sent to live with me as she was not able to control him. He was 13 at the time. He was rude to his mother and always wanted to come and live with me. I did not agreed with his behaviour against his mother and told him that despite what he thinks about her or know certain things, he should always respect her. It was a hard time for him and hard to understand and he had issues at school as well. There’s been few arguments since he become 16 and when he complained to his mother about our disagreements, she was calling the police and than he started been even more rude towards me and my new wife. I was never arrested or something but I stopped buying pretty presents and focused more for him to build some decent morals and he finished the school with much better grades as his teachers said.
We moved out of London last year and after few months he moved back to London, still with a young mind but we keep in touch. His complains have been heard about his siblings and they believe I was too harsh on him.

At this moment, my daughter just turned 13, my son is 15 year old.

My side of the family is much bigger than their mother’s and even the circle of friends.
After she moved out of London, their mother restricted the children to keep contact with any of my side contacts been involved, including the grand parents or any person I might have in common.

I can not believe this area of aspect is ignored by the judges.
Also, after I followed a parenting course, I’ve noticed the lack of supports from the institutions to support the children connecting with their parents or close relatives, god parents…
I do see sense in certain situations, but generalising this will degenerate the family connections and children will grow emotionless towards their own family. And been in a depressing mood for a young child?, it is very worrying.

What date is to be taking into the calculation for these 2 years banning? The date of my application in October 2019 or of the final hearing in October 2020?

Thank you again.
It’s been much appreciated.

 

[Ash]

The date the order was made. Assume the order was made at the final hearing in October 2020? So that would be 15 months ago. Meaning you couldn't apply again until October this year. By then the 15 year old may have turned 16 and the courts aren't going to make orders for a 16 year old. But they might for the 13/14 year old.

This is just a quick reply as not much time just now, but your ex has taken advantage of the fact that over the age of 12, the child's wishes are taken quite heavily into consideration. Unfortunately Cafcass don't always spot coaching and take the wishes literally (ie expressed wishes). It's then necessary to argue at final hearing that it should be the child's "ascertainable" wishes, not "expressed" wishes. Cafcass don't like being disagreed with and would probably say the wishes WERE ascertainable. What needed to happen at that point was putting the Cafcass officer on the stand at final hearing and cross examining them - undermining their report. That is how to get this "wishes" thing overturned. There was no reason why your children couldn't see you at all - they could at least have come every other week-end and some of the holidays.

This happens a lot - ex coaches the kids to say what she wants and its hard to enforce orders with teenagers unless you can prove (or convince a Judge) that the children were coached (as you tried to do).

Judges tend to order what Cafcass recommends about 99% of the time. Unless you can undermine the Cafcass report via cross examining at final hearing (one argument there is - did the Cafcass officer see the children with both their parents, or just with the Mother? If not with both then there's the argument that the report was faulty).

By saying you can't apply again for two years, it's basically making it very hard for you to get another order - after two years of no contact and with their ages. At the time you maybe should have appealed (and had a different Judge).

Court cases can go wrong - for various reasons or depending on whether the Judge is good or not.

I think as October approaches you should apply again on a C100 for an order to "spend time with" your children. You might only get an order for the 13 year old but it's worth a try for both children. The problem is - if they made an order and your ex has manipulated the children into refusing to see you, the courts say they can't do anything - can't force a teenager to do something. Which is why Mothers do this - knowing its hard to get orders for older kids. But it is still your ex's responsibility to encourage and facilitate an order being followed and there are incentives to make sure she does follow it.

Also teenagers can be difficult to handle - and your ex will find this too - they want more independence and they may take things into their own hands more - if they're not alienated - which it sounds like may be starting to happen re your recent messages. Keep those messages. They could be evidence.

The distance doesn't help - it's not like you could just bump into them somewhere. But don't give up. Who told the kids you were too hard on the eldest? Their Mother maybe - feeding them negativity about you.

I'll think this through a bit and write more later.

 

[Seb]

The date the order was made. Assume the order was made at the final hearing in October 2020? So that would be 15 months ago. Meaning you couldn't apply again until October this year. By then the 15 year old may have turned 16 and the courts aren't going to make orders for a 16 year old. But they might for the 13/14 year old.

This is just a quick reply as not much time just now, but your ex has taken advantage of the fact that over the age of 12, the child's wishes are taken quite heavily into consideration. Unfortunately Cafcass don't always spot coaching and take the wishes literally (ie expressed wishes). It's then necessary to argue at final hearing that it should be the child's "ascertainable" wishes, not "expressed" wishes. Cafcass don't like being disagreed with and would probably say the wishes WERE ascertainable. What needed to happen at that point was putting the Cafcass officer on the stand at final hearing and cross examining them - undermining their report. That is how to get this "wishes" thing overturned. There was no reason why your children couldn't see you at all - they could at least have come every other week-end and some of the holidays.

This happens a lot - ex coaches the kids to say what she wants and its hard to enforce orders with teenagers unless you can prove (or convince a Judge) that the children were coached (as you tried to do).

Judges tend to order what Cafcass recommends about 99% of the time. Unless you can undermine the Cafcass report via cross examining at final hearing (one argument there is - did the Cafcass officer see the children with both their parents, or just with the Mother? If not with both then there's the argument that the report was faulty).

By saying you can't apply again for two years, it's basically making it very hard for you to get another order - after two years of no contact and with their ages. At the time you maybe should have appealed (and had a different Judge).

Court cases can go wrong - for various reasons or depending on whether the Judge is good or not.

I think as October approaches you should apply again on a C100 for an order to "spend time with" your children. You might only get an order for the 13 year old but it's worth a try for both children. The problem is - if they made an order and your ex has manipulated the children into refusing to see you, the courts say they can't do anything - can't force a teenager to do something. Which is why Mothers do this - knowing its hard to get orders for older kids. But it is still your ex's responsibility to encourage and facilitate an order being followed and there are incentives to make sure she does follow it.

Also teenagers can be difficult to handle - and your ex will find this too - they want more independence and they may take things into their own hands more - if they're not alienated - which it sounds like may be starting to happen re your recent messages. Keep those messages. They could be evidence.

The distance doesn't help - it's not like you could just bump into them somewhere. But don't give up. Who told the kids you were too hard on the eldest? Their Mother maybe - feeding them negativity about you.

I'll think this through a bit and write more later.

Thank you for the reply.

Caffcass only spoken with the children only at the mother’s place. Never to mine’s.

My eldest went to see his mother and siblings at Christmas and offered to take some presents to them from me and we’ve shopped together for them prior his visit. But, the next day he called me and offered his sympathy towards me as the mother did not allowed him to bring the presents at her place.
She gave him instead an email address to pass to me which she was ordered back in October 2020 to provide where I can write to the children on their birthdays or celebrations.

How on earth these rules do not take in consideration a parent’s heart for their children. How can they cut them out from their lives after all their dedication and pure love they gave and also the efforts they put into bringing them up with care and worries…

It makes this world so cold been so indifferent where liars and cheaters are getting away with things.

I’m really worried that I have no chance to express my children’s worries.
So far, my daughter told me(believes) that the mother moved out of London because of me, that I’m trying to harm them, she called me a stalker when I joined some apps to see her profiles and she blocked me. She started calling me abusive names that it very worrying as she has never been rude to me before.
It may be her anger towards me not been able to remain in contact with her and she might thinks I don’t care about her. She told me that she gave up on me. It hurts, when the reality is different but they grow up and forget quick the good and happy moments and they will remember more the negativity and the arguments.

Me eldest sent me few snaps of them knowing how much I miss them. I’m happy knowing they’re healthy and I’m praying for their health and safety.

It’s not easy to focus on work or do many activities knowing they could have enjoyed as well.

I always pointed the importance of both parents which could contribute for their upbringing. Too bad that the personal interest of some people to cause harm is affecting so much the children.

I know I’m not perfect either, I reflect about myself first before judging others, try to see their motives and look for positives outcomes. Hard to understand these outcomes but I’ll keep fighting in a calm manner even if they cause me pains and sleepless nights.

I reckon we need to try to carry on fighting, controlling our emotions and keeping our faith that the reality facts will surface instead of instigations and alienations.

 

[Ash]

I am really sorry and hear your pain. I am still seeing my son but it was a close thing, and he is semi alienated and under pressure a lot.

"Caffcass only spoken with the children only at the mother’s place. Never to mine’s." That happens a lot. And is a reason to get a Cafcass recommendation undermined at a final hearing. Parental Alienation is something that is not always picked up by Cafcass - they're not trained in it.

Glad you had some kind of feedback from your eldest. So it was ordered she give you an email address to contact the other two, 15 months ago and she's only just done it? With "indirect" contact like this, be prepared for replies not actually being from the children (I know my ex sends messages from my son's phone as if it's him - I can tell by the language used (hers) and the negative bullying tone! That is also something to bear in mind re your daughter's message. It may or may not be from your daughter. Your ex has sole control over their lives.

"How on earth these rules do not take in consideration a parent’s heart for their children. How can they cut them out from their lives after all their dedication and pure love they gave and also the efforts they put into bringing them up with care and worries…"

This shouldn't have happened. The time should have been reinstated. Your ex took advantage of delays via a false allegation, and the Covid situation (not to mention unilaterally moving the kids away). Courts look at the best interests of the children over the needs of the parents. But seeing both parents is what children need. There are occasions when Cafcass decide there is such hostility between parents that it's causing conflict for the children and that the harm from this outweighs their need for a relationship with both parents. They usually get that wrong - because the conflict is usually one sided. But I think it sounds like your ex is an alienator. Any info twisted and used against you, exaggerating things, and telling the children untrue things. Alienators are extremely manipulative.

The fact that her sudden move and allegations coincided with the Mother remarrying should have rung alarm bells with a Judge. And after your many years of co-parenting, no contact seems wrong, There is a lot of high profile press about domestic abuse these days though - radical feminists making the headlines etc - and a culture of "believe all women". Cafcass were trained to a feminist model of social work (an outdated one). But with a court - evidence and cross examination (to show lying) should be the key. Having said that, there are some good Cafcass officers, but many people find they are biased towards the Mother.

Sometimes case details and history don't get seen with a few different hearings and different Judges. You almost have to know the faults with system to pre-empt them and ensure they don't happen. A position statement at every hearing helps keep the matter and history focused. But the main issue is that your ex "played the system" - claimed these things to Cafcass.

It is a tough world for men right now - look at someone and you're accused of abuse! Looking at someone's online profiles isn't stalking (and I think many many separated parents do this - snooping to see what's what!). Unless you posted hate mail on her profiles or something.

It sounds like the very common situation - your ex remarried and wanted to move on and cut you out - selfish. So she could have a "normal" family life and replace the Dad. My ex did the same (or tried). After 8 years of separated parenting she suddenly made allegations out of the blue to social services and stopped my son coming. She had been remarried for some time and had another child with her H. The trigger came when that child was about to start school - a) I was no longer needed for childcare and b) she wanted to be the only family present at school with both kids. Just suited her.

I was lucky at the time to get some very good legal advice. The Solicitor I went to was rubbish. But I got advice from an online solicitor who said - deal with it robustly. I was able to get a short notice hearing at 48 hours because I had a holiday booked and contact had been stopped (evidenced in writing). The Judge took one look at the history and dismissed the allegations - partly because my ex was stupid enough to have threatened to make them, in writing!

The other reason they make allegations is to get a free solicitor. And those solicitors are happy to accuse you of being an abuser (they are acting for their client and being paid). It's an adversarial system. People think - why don't they just believe me? Because the court has to decide who is lying and allegations need to be looked into (usually).

Did you have lawyers with your last case or did you do it yourself? There are also some very ropey solicitors out there - and I've found the majority of solicitors are also biased towards the Mother. Barristers are better.

One thing that care is needed with is, never saying anything negative about the ex in documents or court proceedings. The ex can send you abusive stuff and accuse all sorts - but if the Dad does that they are labelled as "possibly aggressive" (ie an abuser) and/or - it's then seen as conflict that's harmful to the children. Usual advice is be whiter than white. Show you're the parent who never says anything bad about the other one and is child focused (which maybe you did) so it's clear the hostility is one sided.

It is a minefield and I learned a few things the hard way. Words in applications and statements/position statements are very important - they can influence Cafcass or a Judge to a degree with blinding logic, tone, solution suggestions etc. What the court want to see is one parent bending over backwards to get on with the other. Even then you can end up with a bad result.

I can't comment really as every case is different - but it sounds like you've had what many others have had - delays, allegations and ultimately the Mother getting the children to say what she wants - and with older children that sways the court decision. You're right not to be angry with the kids.

We all know that if your ex wasn't like this, the kids would be happy to see both of you. If you read some of the stories of adults who were alienated as children they say things like - I had to do/say xyz - I had no power, I had to do what I was told. My parent told me terrible things about my other parent and I believed them. My Mum would get angry and punish me if I said I wanted to see my Dad.

I read one story where the woman said - every time my Dad went to court I had physical abuse to punish me and make me say what I was supposed to - and it was almost a relief when my Dad gave up and stopped applying to court - because then the abuse stopped. (I might add that person was still in therapy after many years and was also reunited with her Dad).

I think in your case it sounds more like manipulation and lies from your ex. Your kids will know you tried to send Christmas presents (because their older sibling is likely to tell them - if not now, then at some stage). So they know you care.

I doubt that message was from your daughter - but even so you don't know what they have been told. They may have been told they will never see you again. My ex told my son things like - Dad lost in court (untrue!) and you can do what you want (and then a combination of lots of treats combined with anger to get them to choose what she wants).

That is parental alienation. If proved it can lead to a transfer of residency, but that can be a long haul and sometimes needs psychologists reports to prove the other parent is alienating. That can be expensive. Most of us can't afford top PA Barristers and Psychologists. However sometimes the court will pay for psychologists reports.

 

[Ash]

I do think its worth applying again - because your youngest is still a couple of years under 16. It could take 9 months to a year. She will be spoken to again by Cafcass to ask her wishes and they will probably again say - she doesn't want to see you. You need to be prepared for that.

If it wasn't for the order telling you not to apply for 2 years, I would suggest going the whole hog and asking for residency "because you will comply with court orders in the childrens best interests and ensure they have a relationship with both parents and families".

That is still possible. Was a reason given as to why you shouldn't apply for another two years? Sometimes a reason is given in a Judgement. It would be worth obtaining transcripts of the final hearing at least (and possibly the other hearings). So you can read through and see exactly what the Judge said. Although you can probably remember. But a transcription can be used as evidence for a further hearing - evidence that Judge X stated xyz in his Judgement.

As I said - don't know all the details of your case - but one slip can xxxx it up sometimes. Like sending her a nasty message. Cafcass will jump on that and see it as a reason to give the children to the Mother.

There are two options.

1) Wait till they're older and consistently send cards/gifts (if your order allows that), or emails - by consistently I don't mean overdo it or you'll get accused of harrassment - but maybe once a month and on birthdays and Christmas. Keep copies of everything you send. Then if they don't get them, one day you can show them what you sent. They will still be thinking about you.
2) Go back to court and fight. But by fight, I mean - be determined, calm, focused and polite. And be well prepared. The initial application wording can mean a big difference.

It is not an easy situation - weighing up the damages. I think if it was me and I had no contact at all with a 13 year old child, I would give it a good shot. But there are solicitors who would say - child is over 12 - give up. There can be a middle ground - where you get more than you have now, even if it's not as much as you'd want. You could do it yourself maybe. Or, what I've done previously, is do it myself but use a Direct Access Barrister for a hearing (to get the best outcome). Works out cheaper than using a solicitor for everything and you get a fixed fee quote. It isn't just the money though, it's also whether you can cope with it all again and how much it will affect your life. Is your partner supportive?

It's a shame you didn't find Dads like us 15 months ago as we'd have said - appeal. It's like a living grief when you miss your kids and can't see them. Even if you do have a happy family.

 

[Ash]

To help work this out, can you think of anything that would be so damning there would be no chance of success? One angry outburst email or argument, or a post on one of her profiles? How did she know you were looking at her profiles? I messed up once saying the wrong thing in front of Cafcass. Nothing major and I got past it. But I know one Dad slipped up and made a jokey negative comment about his ex and that was it - order for no contact.

 

[Ash]

Can I just ask. Was your case heard by magistrates or a District Judge?

 

[Seb]

To help work this out, can you think of anything that would be so damning there would be no chance of success? One angry outburst email or argument, or a post on one of her profiles? How did she know you were looking at her profiles? I messed up once saying the wrong thing in front of Cafcass. Nothing major and I got past it. But I know one Dad slipped up and made a jokey negative comment about his ex and that was it - order for no contact.

I’ve downloaded some apps I’ve been told by their cousins my daughter has been using and after I’ve added to follow she recognised my name and started the conversation with me. I could see clearly that she was interested to find many things but also very afraid that she could be punished for talking to me and at the end accused me for trying to trick her into coming to see me.
I’ve sent her some Happy birthday wishes once and she told me to go away…

 

[Seb]

I’ve downloaded some apps I’ve been told by their cousins my daughter has been using and after I’ve added to follow she recognised my name and started the conversation with me. I could see clearly that she was interested to find many things but also very afraid that she could be punished for talking to me and at the end accused me for trying to trick her into coming to see me.
I’ve sent her some Happy birthday wishes once and she told me to go away.

I have not sent any bad or negative messages…

 

[Seb]

I reckon it was a district judge for each of the 4 court orders.

 

[Ash]

That sounds positive actually. Another Dad had a consulation with Nick Woodall, a parental alienation specialist, and it was mentioned that alienated children often "cyberstalk" to find out about a parent they've lost contact with. While your daughter wasn't seeking you out on the internet, she "found" you and responded. You maybe need to handle the wording carefully if you have further contact. Although things like Whatsapp, TikTok, Instagram, don't show on some parental control software (as in her Mother could see who she's texting and read the texts with parental control software, but not with apps), the Mother can still "mirror" her phone and see everything. All she has to do is have a spare phone set up with your daughter's account to see everything she does. So yes she will be afraid of being caught (I have the same issue). My son would send a whatsapp then delete it - but it still shows who the deleted message was sent to! So ex still knows he contacted me. A bit different as I see my son (but he's still not allowed phone contact with me when he's away).

What I meant above though, was, any messages to your ex that could be construed as hostile?

 

[Ash]

I reckon it was a district judge for each of the 4 court orders.

It should say on the court papers/orders. If it's magistrates it's more than one person. Asking because magistrates are not experienced enough - a District Judge more likely to be proactive and get a handle on the situation. However, it's generally considered that "low level" courts (ie in more provincial areas - meaning areas other than major cities - can be not quite up to speed and it very much depends on the Judge - some are lazy, some are not up to date with things.

 

[Ash]

I have not sent any bad or negative messages…

Ok so your conduct throughout has been blameless - no hostilities, no negativity about the ex etc (although sometimes genuine concerns expressed in court documents can come across as criticism of her). Assuming that, then it sounds like parental alienation pure and simple.

So yes you do need to tread softly because yes your daughter may well be punished for contacting you. If, for example, you had evidence of her saying that, and you wanted to prove in court what's happening, you need to protect your daughter. It would then be a case of asking for evidence to only be seen by the court and not shared between the parties. Because if your ex saw a copy of your daughter's text for example, in your evidence, and it worked against her, then yes it does put the child at risk. It may not be physical but emotional, verbal and psychological can be just as bad.

From what you say your ex is using alienation tactics - confiscating things as a punishment. That's a fairly usual punishment but punishments are for doing something wrong - contacting a parent is not doing something wrong. The effect of this is to a) deter the child from doing it - because your ex wants you out of her life b) make the child choose sides and only have loyalty to one parent c) use intimidation to control the child generally. It's subtle psychological abuse.

The difficulty is - once a child starts to become alienated, they become "enmeshed" with the alienating parent. So they start to believe some of the negativity and copy some of the language. So when your daughter mentioned you might be trying to trick her into seeing you - those sound like the words of an alienating parent - all negative and derogatory - "your Dad is trying to trick you" type thing. That's why people say alienated children are brainwashed. Why would anyone think of trickery otherwise?

Your daughter is still in there though. Karen Woodall describes it as "the real child" who is submerged by the alienated child who is a projection of the alienating parent. Parroting is another way of putting it. If it's severe alienation children are very abusive and can kick and scream if asked to see a parent (which is completely abnormal for any child unless the parent they don't want to see actually is abusive). That is how clever alienators are - they not only make the child hate you but then say the reason the child hates you is because you're an abuser. As if the child's reaction is genuine rather than abnormal. It's still abnormal behaviour for a child, regardless.

It sounds like your daughter is not severely alienated, but is influenced, manipulated and has to do what her Mother says, or else.

This is very harmful for children.

 

[Seb]

No nasty messages to my ex. I’ve avoided as much as possible to speak directly to her even by texts or emails.

I’ve been asked to communicate via emails on the second court order but she was using the emails for other reasons than the children and I’ve stopped replying to her.
She was quite nasty in her emails, even using the F words at some points, but the judge, or Caffcass ignored acknowledging her character or actually who was the abusive one during the marriage.
I’m not worried about her ways or what she says about me. Even when standing in the court room and hearing her lying to the judge under the bible oath. I know she’s acting the victim all the time and pretends she’s acting in the best interests of the children. In reality, she’s manipulative and using others in a very selfish way. Still not bothered about that.
I am worried for the children picking the bad habits. I see things in their behaviour that cause them harm and will affect their abilities to build trust and compassion.
I’m worried that I can not support them when they have uncertainties where I hold the knowledge and could guide them through.
I’m worried that I can not worry if they get a flu or cold or need some moral support.
With all of the above and more, I pray for their health and to be safe wherever they go.

 

[Seb]

If, for example, you had evidence of her saying that, and you wanted to prove in court what's happening, you need to protect your daughter. It would then be a case of asking for evidence to only be seen by the court and not shared between the parties. Because if your ex saw a copy of your daughter's text for example, in your evidence, and it worked against her, then yes it does put the child at risk. It may not be physical but emotional, verbal and psychological

Yes. During the last proceedings, my daughter and I have texted to each other via TickTock app and shared videos to each other.She asked me to keep it secret. She showed also signs of depression crying been abused and bullied through her videos. She expressed she wanted to visit us and she’s missing her little sister. I kept copies and told her if she wants to be heard, we need to tell the child guardian to support her wishes but our secret will be exposed. I was so convinced that they will support her and I told my solicitor about it. My solicitor said the same to contact the guardian as it’s very serious. After the guardian received my copies, they say that after meeting my daughter they did not notice any depressing facts and actually my daughter do not want to visit me. My daughter than text me accusing me of betrayal and complained that she will lose her friends and she will be forced to close her account. Her account went private and I’ve been blocked to see her postings.
I’ve been accused for stalking my daughter by her mother and the TickTock it’s only for children, and she said that in front of the judge. I replied to check the facts as the app is not suitable for under 12’s and my daughter was 11 at that time.
I noticed that the guardian was not very professional and possible not trained for that position. But I was expecting the judge to use her abilities and the common sense to follow the facts for the decisions needed to be taken.
Again, I’m trying to be impartial and carry on my best I can with the hope, there’s ways to rectify things.
I’m also concerned about the fact that courts are not taking into the consideration the aptitude’s of each parent, maybe the educational background or the upbringing environment, the facts showing the characters of people involving statements or work commitments, social contributions, benefits that could contribute massively towards the children upbringing instead of playing games on their tablets or watching TV.
Anybody can say what they want, hard job for the judges to take decisions in a short survey of the case. They generalise too much against the bad cases and try to avoid responsibilities.
I’ve tried to sustain my statements with facts but it did not help.
I had 4 lawyers during these trials. They all seemed surprised by the decisions. On the last one, my lawyer resigned 1 week before my trial and her firm wanted me to pay upfront a new representative that I refused. I represented myself on a video Skype trial and I’ve been put down with all my clear facts and evidence.
It’s such a shame that my children won’t remember our Disneyland trips in LA and Paris, the sky trips in Austria, the landmarks in Scotland and Wales, Europe journeys, the park trips or sport activities, their grandmother’s hot pies or many other wonderful memories, reading them stories, teaching them playing chess or how to ride a bike… but they will remember more these accusations and bad image of me created by their mother…

 

[Ash]

Some Guardians are really not good - and can often be a Cafcass officer. Some are good but sit on the fence a bit. Did the Guardian see the children with you?

It’s risky telling a child about what to say - even though you were just encouraging her. It can be seen as influencing them. I was always told never mention court matters to the child (even though my ex said things like - your Dad is taking me to court again.

A bit different when a Guardian is there because they’re there to talk to kids. Of course they said they didn’t want to see you - pressurised into it. It’s part fear and part loyalty. She will have loyalty to you as well but sees her Mother as having all the power. I read something that said children instinctively try and please the caregiver because they are hard wired to ensure they have the basic needs - home, food - someone there. So with that, along with an ex being negative - they don’t have much of a voice.

If your last hearing was a final hearing then it may have been easier if you’d had a barrister. They are experts at cross examination and can completely undermine the other side‘a evidence - including the Guardian. How your evidence is used also could have been part of a skeleton argument by a barrister (eg the messages). Plenty of Dads have done it themselves and had success, but if the other side had a solicitor or barrister it’s an unfair playing field. Lawyers can present case law which a Judge has to take into account.

It’s wrong that we should have to pay for Barristers etc to see our children.

But the case probably came across as verging on intractable. If the Mother is so averse and won’t follow orders and the children back that up, the easy option is to keep the children out of further court hearings and leave them with the Mother (lazy). A better Judge might get angry with the Mother and tell her it’s her job to encourage and ensure the children see you and threaten transfer of residence.

But some Judges only like dealing with professionals.

I think I understand the business with your daughter. I had something similar with my second court case. Being naive about how things worked. And included things my son had told me and gave examples of his home life here - in my statement for the final hearing. But statements are exchanged so as soon as my ex saw mine she gave my son a hiding. I got a good order which made things a lot better but my son went through the mill. And asked me to let him know in advance if I was going to court again - so he could prepare for his Mother’s anger. I did have to go again for an urgent order for a holiday. Solicitor said you can’t tell him anything about court. And as it was urgent I didn’t see him to tell him but learned from a big mistake there - I had told ex son wanted to go on the holiday. And he was punished again. At that point I realised that it is not safe to use some things as evidence unless you tell Cafcass at the start that there are welfare concerns and you only want evidence to be seen by the court and not exchanged. But that can’t happen for a final hearing as your statement contains your evidence and you’re both cross examined on your statements. To have certain evidence seen privately it has to be really clear evidence of coercion or abuse. So in my mind the court fails children of abusive Mothers. PA is a big issue.

I had another two court hearings and was careful not to revesl
certain things. So didn’t have a strong enough case. Especially as contact hadn’t been stopped (just messing about with dates and pickups).

The child is in the middle of this. Point being my son stopped telling me things - in case I let his Mother know what he had said (via the courts). They are protecting themselves. They love you but they can’t trust you because they get punished.

It’s quite gutting. It helps to try and see it from the child‘a point of view and think - what would help them the most. Depends on the circumstances. They could start to resent you if they have to go through court processes again and punishments snd brainwashing again. Slightly - they still love you. But that’s maybe what your daughter means by betraying her - in submitting evidence to court we breach what they’ve confided and they get punished. So alienation basically silences children. Experts understand that. Cafcass aren’t experts in alienation. It needs psychologists reports to prove it.

So although it’s a bit of a rock and a hard place it leaves you with:

Is it worse for the child to lose you (and they are affected snd have to try and hide those thoughts and feelings about you). Or is it better to have them go through court processes again. Most people, including lawyers - would say the latter. But it needs to be not half hearted - it needs to be going fit it in a big way to get a result that makes the pain worth it.

I went through this dilemma for a while (situation not as bad as yours). Then I saw a Judge describe it as short term pain for long term gain. And that tipped it for me. Yes it’s better to go back to court than let them go. But only if you have a chance of something working out.

Even if your ex followed an order she could still punish the child for enjoying time with you (they do this to make the child refuse to go out of fear of punishments snd psychological stress). So then it needs to be residency with you. Yes your ex could still
say stuff when the kids are with her but you have more control, more time snd can stop them going if they are abused - an incentive for the ex to behave.

So I think you would need to apply for residency with you. Lives with you, spends time with ex. There are lots of arguments. But I would think to be successful you need a good barrister. Not all are astronomically expensive. But cheaper ones are money down the drain. Mine charged 4K for a full day hearing. It was worth every penny. Anything less than that they will be flakey. But they vary too - good and bad. I spent some time getting recommendations from other Dads. If you’re rich you could get a top PA barrister. They win cases.

The only way you can have enough evidence of parental alienation though is via psychologist reports which are higher evidence than Cafcass reports or Guardian reports.

I’m up late and tired - so will come back tomorrow.

And just leave it that - if you don’t want to lose your kids and are worried about them then do go back to court but do your research. The right lawyer, read stuff yourself (have a look at the book list on here ) that helps you understand how the court system works (the book by Karen and Nick Woodall has a good chapter on that). It helps know how to negotiate the system.

Think through what would work. In terms of schedules, your ex etc. It needs to be “lives with” not “spends time with” - to take away some of your ex‘s power. Whether that is share care or residency.

It’s not a decision a court takes lightly (change of residence) due to the upheaval. And if your ex followed court orders there would be no need.

The good arguments come down to the ex being responsible. Her excuse is - just following the children’s wishes. With a good barrister that is no excuse.