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Company DIRECTOR Taking CMS to Tribunal for incorrect payment calculations

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Andy M

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Quick note of my journey and any advice welcome!

I have been divorced for nearly 8 years and in which time I have always paid child maintenance and always provided for my two boys financially whilst having them 42% of the year. We had an agreement in place between us and payments calculated via the CMS calculator on a yearly basis. Last year I was made redundent and decided to persue my career with my own Ltd company. At this point I told my ex that I couldnt commit to what I was paying her previously as I was starting out on my own and I would be paying myself a salary - which could be reviewed after 6 months. My ex then went into a rant saying she cant believe Im not going to pay her what I was paying her before (even though I had lost my job) so she contacted teh CMS to deal with it. I had letter after letter demanding I pay various amounts based on my previous years P60. At this point I had to point out I was no longer in that employment, and that I am running my own business and paying myself the said monthly wage. In the mean time I kept paying the ex - what I had worked out on the calculator based on my new lesser salary.

Hope your all with me so far. After a month or two I managed to get some employment on a business to business, zero hour contract basis with an agency who would pay my company Via IR35. As this payment which is paid into my buisness account goes through HMRC, the CMS could see what was going through and sent me letter after letter saying I should be paying about triple of what I was paying. I argued this fact with them for months, I had threats of legal action, rude and patronising phone calls making me out to be a bad person etc. All tis going on and I still have my boys on average 3 times a week. My point is they are taking what my business income is rather than what my actual income is based on the PAYE pay slips i recieve from my company. The fact they are looking at what my business is earning it doesnt take into account, of the business running costs, time off, holidays and bank holidays, suppliers costs, days not worked for the agency and so on. So how they can pick that figure and use it for the whole years calculations doesnt make sense to me.

After alot of back and forth and in one week receiving 13 letters - all stating different amounts, I had had enough. When I spoke to them for the 100th time and trying to explain, they said they cant help me any further and that I would need to go to Tribunal. Ive continued to pay what I belive is correct but they are saying I am £7500 in arrears and I am waiting to hear when my tribuanl will be.

Im wondering if any of you guys have had any similar experience or if anyone has any advice for going to Tribunal in a similar situation?

Sorry for the long-arse message but Im hoping it makes sense and reaching for some help - as the CMS wont offer me any!

Cheers
Andy
 
Wow. Incompetence and mal- administration on a grand scale. I can't help but also wonder if gender bias is at play too.

Anyway.....get in touch with your MP and ensure they are involved. I think you will get a swift and truthful outcome.

I once had to deal with the total mess that was child tax credits, and your account is disturbingly similar. Once my MP was engaged it all evaporated.

Go for it! SS.
 
I felt alot of bias towards the mother in every converationI had with them.. who I must add is in full time employment and earning ok money!
 
Andy M said:
I felt alot of bias towards the mother in every converationI had with them.. who I must add is in full time employment and earning ok money!
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Ok. I wrote a brief letter addressed to his/her Right Honourable xxxx.

a) asking for assistance with ongoing difficulties with CMS. Cite harrassment and affecting your health/business etc.
b) pleased to meet in person or provide more info as necessary.
c) crucially, attach a full chronology to your covering letter. This should be date/event/outcome of event, three columns, dead easy to comprehend.

HTH, SS.
 
StayStrong said:
Ok. I wrote a brief letter addressed to his/her Right Honourable xxxx.

a) asking for assistance with ongoing difficulties with CMS. Cite harrassment and affecting your health/business etc.
b) pleased to meet in person or provide more info as necessary.
c) crucially, attach a full chronology to your covering letter. This should be date/event/outcome of event, three columns, dead easy to comprehend.

HTH, SS.
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Ok thanks for this.. when you say a full chronlogy - do you mean all the events and discussions Ive had with CMS? I do have the full report from them which is being sent to the Tribunal.

A
 
Easy way to write to your MP here :) An online template on our home page. You just put your post code in, it finds your MP. You write your letter on the pro forma letter and hit submit and they send it.

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

Write to your MP about Child Arrangements

Write to your MP - easy letter writing service for Dads having issues with family court and child arrangements
www.dadswithkids.co.uk www.dadswithkids.co.uk
 
Ash said:
Easy way to write to your MP here :) An online template on our home page. You just put your post code in, it finds your MP. You write your letter on the pro forma letter and hit submit and they send it.

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

Write to your MP about Child Arrangements

Write to your MP - easy letter writing service for Dads having issues with family court and child arrangements
www.dadswithkids.co.uk www.dadswithkids.co.uk
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Thanks Ash - have you come anything like this before?
 
Andy M said:
Ok thanks for this.. when you say a full chronlogy - do you mean all the events and discussions Ive had with CMS? I do have the full report from them which is being sent to the Tribunal.

A
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Yes, your chronology, your timeline, which will neatly demonstrate the frustration you have had and the polite persistence you have brought to seeking reasonableness.

I note Ash's reference to the pro forma, which is helpful, but I think you are capable yourself of writing a brief request for assistance and including the full chronology. The chrono doesn't need the rights and wrongs, just the facts as they happened previously, neatly listed.

The other thing with a pro forma (and I've managed Customer Relations in the past) is that to the administrative assistant who fields its first entry into the MP's system it becomes a familiar format and can suffer from less regard than your own personal request for assistance. Ensure the timeline shows your engagement with any CMS appeals and complaints processes too.

SS.
 
StayStrong said:
Yes, your chronology, your timeline, which will neatly demonstrate the frustration you have had and the polite persistence you have brought to seeking reasonableness.

I note Ash's reference to the pro forma, which is helpful, but I think you are capable yourself of writing a brief request for assistance and including the full chronology. The chrono doesn't need the rights and wrongs, just the facts as they happened previously, neatly listed.

The other thing with a pro forma (and I've managed Customer Relations in the past) is that to the administrative assistant who fields its first entry into the MP's system it becomes a familiar format and can suffer from less regard than your own personal request for assistance. Ensure the timeline shows your engagement with any CMS appeals and complaints processes too.

SS.
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Thanks this is really helpful!

Its so frustraing dealing with them and the ex wife. ive built my life back up from nothing and yet still 8 years down the line I have to deal with this financial mess! grr!

thanks for responding though :)
 
Really sorry to hear this. The problem was your ex going to the CMS. If you had gone to them yourself and asked for reassessment they would probably have reassessed and given you a new amount to pay. We usually recommend going to the CMS for an assessment as otherwise they assess based on what the ex has told them and investigate afterwards. Anyway that isn't much help now!

The CMS base their calculations on the figures from the tax office. That can have pros and cons. Basically they will assess your gross income, as declared to the tax office, and won't allow deductions for expenses, tax etc.

Really sorry you're being harrassed - I have heard some bad stories about this before. You are suddenly treated as a criminal - someone trying to get out of CMS. My only dealings have been very good - but I approached them first - they seem to like that. On both occasions they sussed I was being honest, upfront and had nothing to hide and also sussed that my ex was being a nightmare. I actually think they could have assessed me two different ways (according to something they said) but after hearing my ex "demanding" more (when I was already paying over the assessment) they seemed to opt for the lower option! (Complicated scenario as to whether or not something would be counted - I was told two different things so waited to see what happened).

It sounds like your case has got quite nasty and harrassing and once you're sent demands for back dated payments they can get nastier - it becomes bureaucracy and not just the usual call handlers dealing with it.

From what I've read, you usually have to pay the arrears then show evidence to claim it back later. But that is a huge amount of money.

If you're paying what you think to be correct and they haven't threatened you over the arrears, then yes go to the tribunal. I am wondering if this could be sorted out before then? Has all the communication been on the phone or have you done anything in writing? Maybe set out what you did above for us, including the changes of payment etc - so it's all set out and easy to see, and a polite last paragraph saying you are not seeking to avoid your commitments, merely to establish the correct amount after recent changes of employment and in the meantime have continued to pay x amount as per the Child Maintenance Calculator. That you feel the bill for £7,500 is alarmingly incorrect and as such have forwarded a copy of this letter to your MP in seek of some assistance to resolve matters. You are happy to discuss any misunderstandings and are available on x number and x email.

And copy your MP into the letter, stating clearly at the bottom "Copy to Mr X, MP for Lancaster" (or whoever your MP is.

I agree a personal letter to the MP may be better than the online format (although it looks like a proper letter) - particularly if you need to send enclosures. But at least the link above will give you your MP's name and contact address etc.

So I think I'd maybe, in this order

1) Write to CMS as above
2) Start a claim with the ombudsman
3) Send the copy of the CMS letter to your MP with a very brief covering letter asking if they can assist you to resolve this matter. When the MP gets back to you, then send them any other details (they might ask you to go to the MP surgery and bring everything with you).
 
To be clear though, CMS standard assessment procedure is to take figures from HMRC - they can see straight away via linked computers what those figures are. They tend to only assess annually so they will use the latest figures and the figures could be a year behind each year. Which is not great if you earn a lot one year and very little the next year.

Are their figures wildly incorrect or just incorrect for this year? You at least need a breakdown of what they have assessed when.

Just reading back ........

We had an agreement in place between us and payments calculated via the CMS calculator on a yearly basis.
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So are you saying that previously you had an informal agreement for CM, based on what the CMS calculator said. ie no dealings with the CMS directly before?

What can happen there is, sometimes an ex can claim you have NEVER paid any CMS - if there is no clear record of it. So if paying directly, always do it by standing order and have a reference on the standing order "Child Maintenance". Some Dad have been caught out post separation by say paying the mortgage each month in lieu of CM. And then been told they have never paid any CM because there is no record of any designated CM payment.

Sorry - just seen you're waiting to hear about the tribunal so assume you've already applied. Reason I suggested the letter to CMS and copying the MP is it might give the CMS a kick up the backside and get it sorted if they see your MP is involved.
 
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