Children refusing to come and other bits

[John]

Morning all,
So an update, and will try and keep this short. I was in court last week and was granted 4 hours every other weekend interim contact. My first day was Sunday just gone and I’m arrival the kids were refusing to come, saying they didn’t want to come with me as they don’t know the person nominated as my “supervisor” and don’t want to know them or get to know them, as they could be a horrible person. I strongly feel there alienation going on here.. anyway, after some discussions with the ex, I left the house childless.. I went home thought for a while and came up with a solution that if her 16 year old son (not my son) were allowed to come too then 2 of my 3 kids would come. So I went back collected the my 2 and her 16 year old and went off. The kids refused to get in my car and so had to walk in the car. On the day out (2hrs 45mins as the mother collected them early) we got on absolutely fine, had fun, laughs and a great time. The kids even interacted with the supervisor a little and appeared to get along. When mother collected them she had allegedly received messages from my eldest (11) and her 16 yr old stating they were feeling uncomfortable, the supervisor wasn’t staying away and was getting too involved which they don’t like, and they wasn’t having a good time. I was gobsmacked at this as none of them mentioned anything to me and as far as I was aware all was happy.

I feel like the 16yr old was only sent as a spy and to report back to mum what was happening, and I see he was constantly texting her, I also see a few times my daughter was also texting her.

Now the ex is saying we need to rethink these arrangements, she’s “taken it further” as the kids ain’t happy.
I feel at bit of a loose end here on what to do next as I don’t want a repeat of Sunday on my next visit.

Any advice it views?
Cheers
J

 

[Resolute]

It sounds like there will be a process to go through establishing this arrangement.

It is mum's job to make the children ready for their time with you and to facilitate the arrangement. Really, it is natural for kids to be unsure about something so new. It they are 'not happy' you should both be able to help them settle into things.

Mum is being very quick to think about changing the arrangement. Why not let her know that your focus will be on making the arrangement ordered work well for the children. Perhaps you could invite her to suggest an activity you could book/have planned for the children so that they are looking forward to the next block of time with you and know what to expect.

The idea of having time with you supervised is not meant to be a way of providing mum with material to use against you, it is a safeguard against any crisis. This should allow mum to be safe in the knowledge that nothing terrible can happen during the 4 hours. To me, 16 is a little young to be performing this role. Is there not a grandparent/aunt/uncle/mutual friend...?

Obviously, the two big things to avoid are:

1) letting her provoke you into opposing her or corresponding in a way that is not child focussed

2) indulging her so much that you lose meaningful opportunity for positive time with the kids

You have a tightrope to walk. Whatever you are feeling, I suggest you always offer solutions. If it feels like mum is being totally malicious, vindictive, even outright ridiculous - your armour is to reassure her and take a constructive approach to the situation. If you do anything else, it will very quickly be you that it is in the wrong.

 

[John]

Thanks for your reply, that’s been helpful. Just to clarify, the 16 year old wasn’t there as a replacement for the nominated supervisor (which is my sister) they were there as my children “felt more comfortable with him there too”. I agree 16 is too young, and she was told this by the judge and cafcass in court.
Cheers
J

 

[Resolute]

One of the clearest, strongest, and most memorable bits of advice I was given as my first interim order was bedding in:

"Hang onto that order like a monkey to a tree in a hurricane"

 

[John]

Sound advice that

 

[Kyle]

Res hit the nail on the head: "It is mum's job to make the children ready for their time with you and to facilitate the arrangement" not to try and undermine it.

 

[Ash]

Absolutely. In fact it is her obligation to comply with the order and "encourage" the children to go, not pander to alleged things that say they didn't like it. That shows she isn't encouraging it. If the kids don't want to come then it reflects on her. And that is the argument. Kids don't decide they don't want to go to school - they are told - you're going to school and they go because that's normal. It's the same thing. If her attitude was - you;re going with Dad on Sunday and have a nice time, it'll be fun - then they would go - and have permission to have a nice time. Rather than feeling they have to please Mum knowing she doesn't want it.

So yes it probably is attempted parental alienation.

The interim period though is a kind of observational period as well for the next stage. IF the interim has had issues and not gone well - ie she is not complying with the order, making excuses and encouraging the kids to object - then you have a stronger case at the next hearign.

Keep that mantra in mind - it is HER obligation. Kids are happy if they're not pressurised.

 

[Ash]

How old are your two?

 

[Ash]

Absolutely. In fact it is her obligation to comply with the order and "encourage" the children to go, not pander to alleged things that say they didn't like it. That shows she isn't encouraging it. If the kids don't want to come then it reflects on her. And that is the argument. Kids don't decide they don't want to go to school - they are told - you're going to school and they go because that's normal. It's the same thing. If her attitude was - you;re going with Dad on Sunday and have a nice time, it'll be fun - then they would go - and have permission to have a nice time. Rather than feeling they have to please Mum knowing she doesn't want it.

So yes it probably is attempted parental alienation.

The interim period though is a kind of observational period as well for the next stage. IF the interim has had issues and not gone well - ie she is not complying with the order, making excuses and encouraging the kids to object - then you have a stronger case at the next hearign.

Keep that mantra in mind - it is HER obligation. Kids are happy if they're not pressurised.

Just to add - keep notes, keep records of what happens when. I would avoid getting into a written dialogue with her that suggests you take her points on board about the kids not being happy about xyz. Just follow the order. If it becomes problematic you could send a BIFF email along the lines of

"The court ordered time for the children with me, should be simple and enjoyable time for myself and the children and I ask you to comply with your obligations under the interim order, which are to let the children know they are spending x time with Dad and encourage this. Encouraging the children to do otherwise is not complying with the order. It is the parent who is expected to ensure the order is followed.

Please confirm the children will be made available at x time on Sunday and that they have been given permission to enjoy themselves with me and spend a nice time with Dad".

 

[Ash]

While it may make no difference as to how she behaves, you are building up an evidence file for the next hearing. Keep diary notes as well. If there is a lot of texting going on then you might need a clause in the final order about limiting communication with the Mother during their time with you.

Once you have a good order, that is easier - you set house rules on phone usage. I got my son a games console and another phone to use for games so he could leave the one from Mum's in the kitchen and was allowed to check it twice a day for messages. But it was in another room. So she couldn't be constantly in his head or disrupting things.

 

[John]

Thank you all for your replies, they are really reassuring to me that I am doing the right thing. Ash, my children are 11, 9 & 7.. the 2 that came are 11 & 7. I’ve told ex that at this point in time I will be sticking to the court order and following what the judge has ordered. I actually believe that in her head she thinks because the kids are refusing then it’s ok for them not to come.
Regarding the diary I have already started that, and made notes on what happened Sunday whilst it was still fresh in my mind.
She was making comments at the door to them saying, “just go it’s only 4 hours, you will be back before you know it, by 2pm you will be back home with me”. There was no encouragement saying it will be fun, your going to a trampoline park just pointing out, that 4 hours isn’t long ect.

 

[Ash]

That is exactly the kind of negative pressure she is creating so definitely make a note of that.

It's just an excuse - once they get to 11 exes try this "they don't want to come" more because an 11 year old's wishes are taken more seriously. But even if it was a 13 year old, she still has to follow the order. It's a failure of parenting if she can't encourage them to come.

 

[John]

The other thing is, she’s done an amazing job at getting the children to build a relationship with her new partner and family which shows she can do it if she tries. She says because they don’t know my sister that’s why they don’t want to come, but they also didn’t know her new partners family until they were introduced and encouraged to meet them. So it shows that she is more than capable of it if she wants too..

 

[Ash]

It's all excuses. She has an agenda. Keep that in mind. It's obstruction. Of course she is capable. She is just trying to make it look like the children like some people but not others. My ex is the same. It's childish behaviour but scarily childish.

 

[Roblox]

The other thing is, she’s done an amazing job at getting the children to build a relationship with her new partner and family which shows she can do it if she tries. She says because they don’t know my sister that’s why they don’t want to come, but they also didn’t know her new partners family until they were introduced and encouraged to meet them. So it shows that she is more than capable of it if she wants too..

This isn't uncommon. Sounds familiar.

She's got her new 'family'. You're a bit of an inconvenience. I realise that sounds harsh but unfortunately can be true.

 

[John]

Cheers Roblox, I kind of already sussed that part already. The judge also ordered that I get to a video call them on the weekend that I don’t get to see them, so Saturday or Sunday this weekend it would be, and she’s already told me they’re busy at the weekend so I can’t do it on the weekend it’s going to have to be tomorrow night. I can’t wait for the judge to hear all of this she’s already done in the first 2 weeks of the first hearing. (Still waiting on the actual order to come through from the court I’ve just written down that he ordered at the hearing)

 

[Ash]

You need that in writing - either text or email (or whatsapp type message). Ie if you write to arrange the video call and she says they're busy that is clear obstruction - but you need it in writing so it can be used as evidence later. From now on with arrangements, I would try and do it in advance by text so you have the responses in writing.

If she's said tomorrow night instead of the week-end, that's not so bad - as long as it happens.

 

[Resolute]

Cheers Roblox, I kind of already sussed that part already. The judge also ordered that I get to a video call them on the weekend that I don’t get to see them, so Saturday or Sunday this weekend it would be, and she’s already told me they’re busy at the weekend so I can’t do it on the weekend it’s going to have to be tomorrow night. I can’t wait for the judge to hear all of this she’s already done in the first 2 weeks of the first hearing. (Still waiting on the actual order to come through from the court I’ve just written down that he ordered at the hearing)

In addition to getting it on record that she is obstructing the order, I would mention:

1) you do not agree to her proposed variation
2) it is in the children's best interests to establish a routine they can rely upon
3) you would like to establish a fixed time on Saturday or Sunday morning that the kids can expect your video call

Let her know you are willing to be flexible if necessary, once the routine is established.

If mum stops the order from getting established, there is risk of her preference becoming the arrangement by default.

Her approach so far is tantamount to branding time with you, ordered by the court, as an optional extra.