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Child arrangements problem

Ok so I will do it in pdf form. I have question now. I received an email from a mediatior. He said that mediation can proceed if I sign papers so it's looks like me ex agreed. I think she wants delay everything. Now the question is if I apply for Miam form and say I don't wanna proceed then that will look bad for me in court or is better to have one mediation because I can imagine there will be no agreement between us so everything finish after one session. Can you give me some advice as now I'm stuck and I don't know what to do
Do you need to decide before the end of today? If so just say yes fine and you can change your mind later.
 
Ok so I will do it in pdf form. I have question now. I received an email from a mediatior. He said that mediation can proceed if I sign papers so it's looks like me ex agreed. I think she wants delay everything. Now the question is if I apply for Miam form and say I don't wanna proceed then that will look bad for me in court or is better to have one mediation because I can imagine there will be no agreement between us so everything finish after one session. Can you give me some advice as now I'm stuck and I don't know what to do
You can now asked to be signed off of mediation because you don't think agreement can be reached at mediation. That is perfectly acceptable, it is your view and Court will not judge you by that opinion.

In my case I wanted mediation and spent hundreds on MIAM and 2 further meetings. I did not realise the ex was only playing along until she could move out of the FMH. Nine days after the last mediation, where we agreed (lol) the child arrangements she moved out. Ten days later I was informed by the mediator that she was signed off, and a couple of weeks later I had the CAO served on me directly.....for "Sole Custody & a Prohibited Steps Order".

There's a very long story after that, now 2+ years in the making.

Get the C100 ready and completed as Ash has described above.

SS.
 
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Pm me if you want over the wording of 5b. It's good to get that well written - it influences from the outset.

As Stay Strong says - you can still ask to be signed off. I think the mediator will be trying to persuade you to try mediation though. I wonder if the mediator would tell you if your ex had asked to be signed off.

What you could do, is what I did once. I said I needed signing off to apply to court urgently. Mediator was incredibly against it and almost refusing and trying to persuade me to try mediation. I said - I am happy to have mediation as soon as I have got my court application in but its urgent and I don't want to delay. Because no reason why you still can't come to an agreement after the application has gone in and then say - fine we can put it in a consent order.

It's a tricky time though. Keep things very low key. And courteous and keep things close to your chest right now.

Do you have it in writing that your ex said nothing would change her mind? Also see if your son comes this week-end. Once the mediator tells her you;ve asked to be signed off she may indeed get difficult about you seeing him.

So just thinking - maybe you do need to string things along a bit and go to a first mediation session with your ex. Neither of you are signed off at that point. You can still ask the mediator to sign you off straight after that session. It might help. Maybe your ex will dig her heels in. But don't give any indication you're thinking of applying to court. It's crap in a way as it's like having to lie - it's a fiasco. Saying I want us to reach a written agreeemnt at mediation and this is my suggestion. When actually you know you are wanting to apply to court because she isn't going to agree.

Just to be clear anything agreed at mediation isn't binding - even if it's written out as an agreement - it means nothing. She could just say "not agreed any more" the next day. The one advantage of having an agreement in writing is, if you later have to apply to court you can show what's agreed.

When is the next session meant to be? If it's a week away then that could be a delay and she might, in the meantime, ask to be signed off. It's like russian roulette!
 
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You can now asked to be signed off of mediation because you don't think agreement can be reached at mediation. That is perfectly acceptable, it is your view and Court will not judge you by that opinion.

In my case I wanted mediation and spent hundreds on MIAM and 2 further meetings. I did not realise the ex was only playing along until she could move out of the FMH. Nine days after the last mediation, where we agreed (lol) the child arrangements she moved out. Ten days later I was informed by the mediator that she was signed off, and a couple of weeks later I had the CAO served on me directly.....for "Sole Custody & a Prohibited Steps Order".

There's a very long story after that, now 2+ years in the making.

Get the C100 ready and completed as Ash has described above.

SS.
That is xxxx Stay Strong. Sorry you had that. The whole mediation thing is a good idea, but like court, exes manipulate it and it doesn't work unless both sides want it to work.
 
That is xxxx Stay Strong. Sorry you had that. The whole mediation thing is a good idea, but like court, exes manipulate it and it doesn't work unless both sides want it to work.
Thanks Ash.

Actually, and most importantly, it is ×××× on the children. As an adult you get the fact not everything is as true as it is told. For them it is a betrayal of immense proportion, not that they necessarily realise it as being so. In my story, and at my children's ages, one totally saw it (in time) for what it was, the other, and with SEN requirements, was unaware.

And, I think that while mediation may appear 'a good idea', it is only a sticking plaster without much adhesive in so many instances. It is designed to prevent Family Court matters going ahead but in fact is very likely not to do anything positive where a couple break up AND children are involved. It is a pre-requisite to a CAO application....that's all. Indeed, I've thought what a dissatisfying role it must be to be a trained mediator....an inevitability of the outcome (client signed off and CAO submitted), without any further engagement possible with two people who spent time talking with them about deeply personal life matters.

Where children aren't involved I get the role that a mediator can play. But where children are involved, playing the system before making a CAO merely adds another element of mistrust into an already disintegrated relationship and also adds another financial call into an horrendously expensive process thereafter.

Take care, SS.
 
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I sat through 15 mediations. My ex chipped away/breached everyone of the mediated parenting plan. To the point that the mediator personally emailed me to say I needed to take her to court. Once in court mediation cant be mentioned. However my ex was praised by caffcass for"trying" so hard in mediation" where I was told by same cafcass not to mention mediation. Mediation is without prejudice which is kind of a farce when trying to highlight in court how a fathers parental responsibility and contact time has already been eroded. If I had had just submitted my own C100 years before then I would have been in control of the process. Agree with SS mediation, unless 2 people are on the same page just creates more tension. The reality is people wouldnt need mediation if they could co-parent effectively anyway.
 
Once in court mediation cant be mentioned.

Yup and that's how the process can be manipulated. If your ex has an agenda then anything you say in mediation will be stored up and twisted and used against you. Only had one mediation with my ex - ordered after first hearing. I applied without having it because I already knew she'd said no so I just went in and asked to be signed off. She then made an almighty fuss to Cafcass how she had wanted mediation and didn't have the opportunity. So it was ordered after first hearing. Despite just one shuttle session, she then knew everything I wanted in an order - and has gone out of her way ever since to try and disrupt the areas she knew mattered to me - a particular holiday week, school collections etc.

I told the mediator the first time that mediation wasn't appropriate because there was emotional abuse of my child going on and I'd had severe harrassment and couldn't face seeing her. I was told - still suitable for mediation. But I insisted in being signed off.

The other thing is - it's usually the Mother who is controlling the child arrangements (or preventing them) so she has no motivation whatsoever to go to mediation and spend money doing so! If she was the type to make reasonable arrangements there'd be no need for it.

I think it's fair enough to go to one session and just not agree to anything and ask to be signed off. Because that's the only plus side to mediation discussions not being allowed in court - they don't know you did that! Your ex knows but that doesn't really matter.

It's another opportunity for an ex to manipulate things once they know what matters to you. I was also worried I'd be talked into agreeing things out of compromise, that wouldn't be good for my son or me. So I just decided not to agree to anything and get signed off.

There is still opportunity for dispute resolution at first hearing (or used to be). I think some mediators are passionate about it helping - and it can - it can help resolve misunderstandings when both parents are paranoid about the other thinking or doing something and have the wrong end of the stick. The idea it can help rebuild trust.

So there are lots of things it can do - but the fact is it's not a couple! It's a separated couple and they don't want to behave like a couple and agree things. They're supposed to put the children first - at a time when there are emotions flying everywhere, financial disagreements and both just wanting a life with the kid and not wanting to give up any time.

The biggest problem with it in my view, is there is no actual information for parents about what is supposed to happen with arrangements for kids - if there was maybe some cases wouldn't end up in mediation or court. Others always would. But information isn't enough either - it needs to be a law - saying this is what will happen when you separate. Information would help though, if it was official Gov information that said children must see both parents at least x% of the time after separation or else. Assuming both parents want to be involved.
 
Hello. Thanks for your advices. I think I have time to Monday because that what mediator told me last time. In that email from yesterday its says that the mediation can be arranged after 20 April. So yes basically I will lose already nearly two weeks if I wait. At least she gives me my son so it's with me this weekend. But I can't see him during the week or even pickup him from school. So what you think is better to go for the first mediation or just say on Monday that I want to be signed off. I have some message from her saying that mediation will not help us.
 
I would call the mediator on Monday and say - why is the first mediation not until after the 20th April? She may say that;s the earliest appointment or she may say your ex requested not until after the 20th April. I think this may be to do with school holidays? Easter holidays for the next two weeks. Although your son isn't in school yet. Does her partner have kids in school? Or maybe the mediator is on school holidays?

I would say to the mediator - you don't want to wait that long because your son is under stress so you want signing off. If she tries to argue and talk you out of it say - you still want to have mediation with your ex but you want signing off to apply to court and then in the meantime maybe have mediation, but your ex has already told you she will not change her mind at mediation and your son is under stress,

So yes, ask to get signed off. As soon as your C100 is ready to go. But it's not finished yet is it? In fact I would say to the mediator on Monday that you want to go in with the form and have her sign it there and then because it's urgent - your son is under stress. And just keep politely repeating that if she tries to persuade you out of it. If the mediator is difficult they may refuse to do that and say they will post the form out to you (which can take two weeks by the time it's processed). In which case you would have to wait. The danger there is the mediator may tell your ex you've asked to be signed off.

Another option is to have another MIAM with a different mediator and ask to be signed off on the day - but that will cost more money. Not sure that suggestion was helpful actually!

See what the mediator says on Monday when you ask why is the appointment not until after the 20th April? Actually it doesn't matter what reason she gives, the delay is a bit risky in my opinion. Your ex may have guessed you're thinking of applying to court and may be doing something meanwhile. Is it possible she could move a bit further away so midweeks become impossible for you from school? Is she renting? If renting she could move quite quickly.
 
My guess is your ex is going away on holiday. School holidays or not it's Easter time. But yes I'd be suspicious about the delay.

If the mediator emailed you, maybe just email back and say, you wish to be signed off mediation asap and can bring the form in to be signed on Monday and will phone on Monday to arrange this.

Actually the system is ridiculous - if you're signed off mediation to apply to court you can't have mediation! Technically. But I see no reason why you can't be signed off and then contact a mediator and say - want to have mediation now! The system is probably designed to keep people out of court but it can be manipulated by the person witholding the child.

It's possible the mediator may tell your ex you've asked to be signed off, which is why you need your form ready to go and to try and get the form signed on Monday. It's an anxious time as she may react and stop your son coming meanwhile - be prepared for that. But you should get an interim hearing within 6 weeks - if you're in London I don't know how long it is till a first hearing at the moment. But at the first hearing you'll get an interim order to get the time back as it was before she reduced it - which is what you will be asking for on your C100 for an interim order. And stress in the application that your son is distressed and under stress - that might help with a first hearing date.
 
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On Monday I will see what mediator tell me and after that I think I will ask to sign me off. I don't know what are my ex plans but I don't think she will move out as she has a lot of debt because is irresponsible. She just spending money on her trips to Dominican Republic and clothes and other stuff for her and anything on her son. I buy him everything from clothes , shoes, school uniforms everything he needs. But for example when she go for 6 weeks to Dominican Republic she just leave job spend all the money over there and Come back with nothing and no job. We living far from London. We live in Exeter so is in South West of UK. I started filing the form c100. There is a section 1d. It's asking: who do the children currently live? So I have to put with both parents??
And after that is the section 5. I think I will need your help on there. So I will send you pm tomorrow afternoon.
 
Yes put both parents. And where it asks for the names and addresses - put both parents there as well. For 5b just draft what you want to say in your application. Start out with what you're asking for and why (very briefly). Then go on to explain a bit of history - when you met, when separated, when child was born. What was agreed and how the care was shared and the schedule which, as you work shifts, meant you had child during the day for a whole week at times. Then go onto the recent circumstances - Mrs Ex unilaterally changed the arrangements to every other week-end with your son who is becoming distressed and has regressed with toiletting. You feel strongly that the schedule should continue as before so your son has continuity and stability with both parents and are concerned at the distress he is under currently. Say what you think the Mother's point of view is and why you don't agree with that. And despite attempts at negotiations Mrs Ex has been clear she will not change her mind. Then final paragraph is askign the court what you want to order.

On the form you can just put "please see attached sheet" in 5b, type it out and stick that page behind the page with 5b on - that's fine. As long as it's stapled together. You need to put your name at the top of the separate page, and what the application is for at the top too (eg Application for Child Arrangements order). And it's a good idea to copy the statement of truth at the bottom and sign it and date it (the statement of truth is at the end of the form). It authenticates it further because you are stating this is the truth to the best of your knowledge.
 
1d should be covered in here

 
Hello again. I will try to finish the form tonight. My sister and her boyfriend they say that if I go to court is just to lose my time and money and they make me think more. I don't why, they say basically the same what my ex. That my son needs to be with my ex during school day, need stability and dosent matter that my son was half month with me till now, obviously me shift pattern is a bit tricky. My ex aswell said that im crazy and she spoke with many mums in the school and there is no chance for win for me. She even said that I can finish with my son never stay overnight with me. I can't agree with that because I can't feel that is right and my son has to wait weeks to see me and I don't think that any judge will be happy with that , apart that we had so strong relationship with my son. I feel if I don't go to court then I will regret that.
 
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I agree with you. If you don't go to court then nothing will be certain for the future and she could change things again. There are also school holidays to consider. I know of another Dad who had a "lives with both parents" order near 50/50 despite a four week shift pattern. It was also written into the order that if his shifts changed in future, the dates and times would alter but still be the same number. However his was more or less thrashed out with Cafcass helping them to agree it. His ex agreed in the end rather than pay more money to go to a final hearing.

Understand your sister saying that, but nobody else knows what it feels like - it's your relationship. Yes people hear bad things about the courts and Dads having no rights etc. But providing there are no welfare issues, you will get an order. And even Cafcass would not let you go so long without seeing him - even if they just stuck in a midweek tea time visit here and there - and why do that when he can stay overnight?

The worst case scenario the court would order would be just the every other week-end and half the school holidays (you can still have your child for school holidays even if you're working - up to you to arrange babysitters etc). The difference being your ex would have to stick to that and couldn't chop and change things.

As for the mediation. That would be worth trying in case the mediator can persuade her by telling her you would get more than that if you went to court. Except for the delay. All the while it's delayed you're not seeing your son. So yes I'd call the mediator tomorrow and say you'd like signing off because it's too long to wait till "after the 20th" and you are concerned at the stress your son is under.

Do you think your ex is likely to make any allegations about you?
 
No. I don't think so. She can't basically say anything about me. Just stick to that my shift pattern is irregular. But yesterday she change her mind I don't know why probably spoke with someone who tell her that I have chance to have more days than she says. So she agreed to two full weekends including Mondays. Aswell Friday and Saturday on the other weekend and 3 days when I'm off during midweek so it's nearly the same agreement but I have 3 days less than It was. What do you think about that. But obviously that not write in paper so not good for me. What could I do to write that on paper go to solicitor?? That's if she wants if not then the only way is the court because she can change any time what she said.
 
No. I don't think so. She can't basically say anything about me. Just stick to that my shift pattern is irregular. But yesterday she change her mind I don't know why probably spoke with someone who tell her that I have chance to have more days than she says. So she agreed to two full weekends including Mondays. Aswell Friday and Saturday on the other weekend and 3 days when I'm off during midweek so it's nearly the same agreement but I have 3 days less than It was. What do you think about that. But obviously that not write in paper so not good for me. What could I do to write that on paper go to solicitor?? That's if she wants if not then the only way is the court because she can change any time what she said.
1. Agree with her this will be the arrangement and that you both will formalise it. To do this you each appoint a solicitor, a draft Cosent Order is agreed between you both and it is submitted for Court authority approval.

2. Seek her agreement to doing (1) with a timescale for security....and fail. No choice then but to apply to Court with your C100.

HTH, SS.
 
That's good news. Agree with Stay Strong - and also cover all your bases. I suspect it is the mediator who has said to her - if you don't agree more time he can go to court and they will give it to him.

So can you just set out what she's offering here? Going back to your 4 week schedule you posted - so it's clear what's actually being offered and what the pattern is. Is it three week-ends out of four plus 3 midweek days when you're off? When and how did she tell you this? Verbally? Or by text or email. Even if it's just in a text it's enough to show there's agreement.

I'd still be concerned this could lead to delay if she changes her mind again. Could you ask the mediator for an earlier appointment - stress the need for something to be resolved quickly.

If it's three week-ends out of four and 3 midweek nights over the four weeks that would be what - 9 nights out of 28? ie 4.5 days a fortnight. That would be good. Did she mention school holidays? Don't rush to get anything in writing. Maybe fill out that parenting plan template to include how you want it to be, including the schedule she has proposed, but adding - and half the school holidays when son starts school. And add anything else that could do to be agreed long term. Like how long before introducing new partners (that could reassure her a bit), and any financial agreements or anything you propose in that way. The good thing about that template is it automatically says "lives with" without it being an order as such.

When you've got it filled out and sounding reasonable, you could maybe email to her and say - before the mediation goes ahead, you've drawn up a parenting agreement/plan that could be discussed at the mediation and to let you know her thoughts on it. That way you have it in writing, by means of the parenting plan attached to the email. If she responds verbally, then write a diary note of the conversation - email it to yourself, as soon after as you can while it's fresh in your mind. As something in writing that explains what her response was.

So I'd try and get an earlier mediation appointment. And at mediation, if agreement is reached then you could broach the subject of saying you'd like the agreement to be formalised and made into a consent order. And see what her reaction is.

You could actually write a diary note now (an email to yourself - so it's dated and time on it). Something like:

"Dropped son off after the week-end and ex name seems to have had second thoughts after her MIAM and has said she will agree to son spending three week-ends out of four with me and three midweek nights during my week off. Will try and get this formalised at mediation so we have a clear parenting agreement ongoing."

All this builds a record of what was discussed and agreed and could be used as evidence in future if needed.

One thing that can make an ex back down is the costs involved.

I had something similar in the early years - whenever my ex tried to stop me seeing my son or reduce time, I said I would let the courts decide - and she thought about it for a bit and gave way - at the time her new H helped with that. She was up for a fight - as is her nature - but her new H had said they didn't really wanting to be spending money on court. And talked her round a bit. That was quite a new relationship at the time and once they'd been together longer things changed - she was keen to impress him in the early days! Now he's just under the thumb and daren't say boo to a goose!
 
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Now my ex applied for child maintance. I was thinking that. But can she do that or not?? I will contact child maintance services what can I tell them now as I don't have nothing on paper. I don't wanna pay her anything because I buy everything to my son and I'm taking care of him but without paper I'm not in good situation. She lied obviously that a I never spend a day with my son so they put very high child maintance payment.
So in this case is better go to court to get everything on paper because that situation will never end for me, I think is the best thing to do. What is your opinion?
 
After I confront her today and ask why she done that because she didn't even mention any money to me. She just said that she was angry because I want go to court so she wants to give me a lesson...🙄🙄 She said she doesn't know how to delete the case but I don't know if it's true. So I spoke with CMS and told them everything. Obviously they need the paper from court about shared care but didn't agree with what she said and said I have my son for more days. So they will come back to her. I told my ex to delete the case as they said she can do it calling or on their website. If she not do that I will take her to court as that is ridiculous to limit days with my son to just get the money from me and after all who is losing is me and my son.
 
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