CAO and Financial Order - where to start?

[man.united332]

Hello All,


Background
------------
Wife got me arrested for false DV allegations couple of times last year, was on bail, had to leave the rented house due to bail conditions, no charges and all cases dismissed, wife followed up with NMO, which i accepted on no admission basis, tried mediation but she didn't attend, the signed mediation forms are already 4 months old.

currently kids (13 and 7) living with mother but i see them daily, but mother is very controlling and i am at her mercy and she can say NO anytime (which she does often) to deny me seeing kids, specially i cant take kids on holidays and no overnight stays as i am living in a shared house at the moment.

Now i want to sort out child arrangements and financial order preferably out of court (to save costs), wife got legal aid, i really doubt though that wife will consider any out of court settlement, divorce is already in progress and waiting for conditional order.

I got no assets, little savings and reasonable salary, i want to give my wife her fair share whatever it is, i believe its 50-50, so that from my 50% i can get a small house and live peacefully with a new partner (no partner yet).

Regarding child arragments i like to apply for 50-50 like one week on and one week off or something similar, I am a very hands on father and take part in all child related activities like helping with their studies, parent teacher meeting, gp apt and anything and everything i can do. i work from home so doing all this is not a problem for me. no smoking or drug related issues, health is fine. obviously her solicitor will accused me for everything possible in the book like they did in their NMO application.

What are my chances to get 50-50?
in order to apply for a C100 application do i need to have a rented house first, i dont want to rent beforehand as i dont want to spend 2K per month on a 2 bed house just to find out wife deny kids access, but i can get a house as soon i get court order.

Solicitors are bloddy expensive and i trust myself more and happy to do it on my own and can use McKenzie friend if its beneficial at any stage, i can't spend my small savings on solicitors as i intend to use it for my house deposit.

should i email her solicitor for out of court settlement of just apply to court direct

If i get married before CAO and financial order sorted, will there be any implications? i like to move on and get married asap.

What if i buy a property now with my savings, i can offer her share to pay in cash, maybe in instalments once we know how much i owe her.

for the sake of financial order what is my separation/marriage end date?

please advise where to start, is there a same application for both CAO and finance or separate, which one should i apply first?

Many Thanks

 

[Kyle]

Others may have differing views but child arrangements would be more important to me. You're in a unique position to most on here as you're seeing your kids daily, which shouldn't be undervalued given how some post marital/relationship child arrangements end up, but that said, the mother is unlawfully dictating that time spent as she sees fit, and is refusing overnight stays and holidays.

Its also interesting to see that trying to arrange Mediation has not rang any alarm bells with the mother. Some are acutely aware that its a prerequisite for an application for a court order and stop contact as a result. And this is the enduring risk with making that court application while you still have some contact. The mother ceases contact in retaliation.

Its also interesting that she applied for an NMO after the DV case was dropped, yet she still permits you to see the kids daily!!

CAO are seperate family orders.

I see no reason why 50-50 shared care wouldn't be considered. How do you forsee the wife responding and challenging your CAO application? Is she likely to resist with further welfare allegations? The DV allegations were dismissed. Even if she tried to use that as justification to sabotage your application for an order, they've not been a blocker to the current daily contact, and CAFCASS would pick up on that during their Safeguarding report to the court.

Legal representation is expensive. These people profit from family disputes. Its their job. The CAO application can be assisted using the experience in this forum. Section 5 (5b), page 10 of court form C100; Why are you making this application, needs to be concise, conflict and critisism free. Your reasons for bringing this application to the court. Any previous agreements (formal or informal) or parenting plans, and how they have broken down. Reasons given by the respondent for their actions. What you want the court to do about it.

Direct Access Barristers are what are typically recommended on here. Solicitors charge upwards of £300 per hour/letter/email etc. Barristers charge a fixed fee. Anything from £900 - £1300 for an hour long first or second hearing. Anything from £2000 - £5000 for a Final Hearing, regardless of whether that hearing is held over one or two days.

The hour long first and second hearings etc are, more often than not, just for the court to establish context in the case. If things get messy and DV or substance abuse allegations are made that the court cannot make a probable judgement on, finding of fact (Fact Finding) hearings can be ordered to get to the bottom of things, and at the moment, this seems to be dragging some cases out due to delays, depending on region.

The Final Hearing is typically where a Barrister comes into their own. They can draft an order in the court and present that to expedite an agreement. If the judge is content you can walk away with an order.

What are your living arrangements at the moment? Navigating the Family Court CAO process isn't a quick result. It could take up to a year to get a CAO following a Final Hearing, if things don't get complicated.

 

[man.united332]

I see kids daily and that is just to do school runs and eat together once or twice a week, she let me do the school runs maybe because it suits her as school runs are time consuming. I am looking for more quality time like helping kids with homework etc , i am looking for a more stable routine for myself and kids hence i need CAO.

Can i buy a house with my savings, lets say i got 25k savings, 50-50 split is a starting point, that mean lets assume i owe her 12.5 k, if i spent all 25k as house deposit and offer her 12.5k in instalments, is that a good idea, because i need max amount for a decent deposit, also its for her own benefit for e.g if i pay her 12.5 in one go, she'll end up more than 16k and she'll loose her benefits.

Do i need my own house rented or mortgage in order to get 50-50 child arrangements? i mean if i don't have a rental/mortgage house will i loose contact, i am happy to rent/mortgage but i need CAO first as for e.g if i rent now and mother stop contact then its a waste of money.

she applied for NMO because that means i cant return to the rented property where she is living with the kids, otherwise she wouldn't be eligible for any housing by council but now she got a decent house and living happily with kids.

Once i apply for CAO, i believe her solicitor would accuse me for anything like they did with nmo to protect the best interest of their client.

So far they haven't raised any concern for child safety while kids are with me but as i have read on this forum to be ready for unexpected although mother knows i am a very good and caring father and so is she, she is also a very good mother, fantastic parents but unfortunately relationship broke down.

Should i write to her solicitor and ask for out of court settlement for both CAO and financial? before apply for C100?

I am currently living in a room in a shared house like airbnb

Thanks

 

[Dirge]

Think a shared house might be a problem, don't think that would go down too well with CAFCASS. So if you are looking for overnights with kids maybe try to sort more suitable accommodation. CAFCASS asked me if kids had their own bedroom. Also, if your last MIAM appointment was more than 4 months ago you're going to have to do another one. Get your C100 application ready before hand so you can put it in immediately if your ex is not engaging with mediation. As Kyle has said, the danger with mediation is that mothers have a tendency to start playing nasty and with hold the kids if they know you are planning the CAO route. It's a tough situation, feel for you.

 

[Ash]

Hmm. It sounds a good idea to me, to buy a house using your savings as deposit. It would be your only home after separation. How that would work as regards divorce finances I don't know. I'm slightly confused when you mentioned her rental. Was that the former marital home?

 

[Kyle]

The school run situation is interesting as she is sort of taking advantage a bit if she'd rather you did it so she doesn't have to, but this sort of mindset could be expanded upon to your advantage as, I'm sure she'd like more free time, why don't you have the kids more so she can go out and enjoy herself? Why don't I have them overnight? #wink Maybe she wouldn't be so resistent to a CAO if she saw the benefits that being child free more often had for her! #wink

Agree with Dirge and Ash. A proper place of your own not only provides you with more stability, it provides a safe and settled place for the kids.

The finances are undoubtedly going to be something you will need to discuss with or articulate to her at some point. Does this coversation really need to be through a solicitor? Does the NMO mean you can't contact her at all?

Given the risk to her benefits, its in her interest to sort things out. Ideally, amicably.

I'm also a bit confused about her housing situation. So, she applied for a NMO to stop you going to the rented property you lived in as a married couple, but she is now in a new council house?

False allegations in the Family Court are as common and as guaranteed as Beans cause wind. (This is a poetic way of saying, people talking sh*t!)

Family Law and Civil Law both differ from Criminal Law, particularly when establishing the necessary standard of proof. For example, instead of putting a case before a jury of the public to determine if the defendant did the act “beyond all reasonable doubt”, each party must make their case directly to a judge who will apply what's called the “probability” test.

The standard of proof is the balance of probabilities. Is it more likely than not that the event occurred? Any fact in a dispute has to be proven on the balance of probabilities. This means that, to be treated as having happened, any fact in a dispute has to be proven to be more likely than not. So, if an ex makes an allegation against her childrens father to justify obsructing contact, it is not the father's (the applicant's) responsibility to prove the accusation false, it is the respondants responsibility to prove it true. This is a fundamental part of the legal system. So they can accuse you of whatever deluded BS they like. If it never happened, there is no proof, no probabilities to balance. Stand firm in the face of false allegations. The court will ask her for proof. Just like my ex, who was ordered by the court to provide a timeline of DV allegations and exhibits as evidence for a hearing. Of course, this document never materialised, because it never happened, and she was ticked off for it.

Raising concerns for child safety as a reaction to the CAO application, following a significant period of unsupervised, trusted contact with you would be viewed with some sceptisim I'd of thought. And another baseless allegation with no supporting evidence.

You're at a critical crossroads here. The direction of travel you chose to go in is going to have a reaction. So think about and prepare for it.

Mediation didn't work the first time, but you could use that to propose a more formalised set of child arrangements and agree on finances. You will need to attend a MIAM again anyway for your C100 form/CAO application.

If you can't make your propositions to her directly then what are your options?

 

[Ash]

She can't really raise any allegations about child safety when you've been doing the school run and having regular time So I don't think you'd have problems getting an order. You could ask for a progressing order with time increasing once you're in your own place.

 

[man.united332]

Hmm. It sounds a good idea to me, to buy a house using your savings as deposit. It would be your only home after separation. How that would work as regards divorce finances I don't know. I'm slightly confused when you mentioned her rental. Was that the former marital home?

if i mortgage a house, can she or judge can take it away from me?

At the moment she is renting , its the same house we were living together with kids but because of bail conditions and now NMO i cant go back to the house, since i was forced to leave the house due to bail, she negotiated the house with agent and transferred the tenancy to her name and now she pays the bills and rent with the help of benefits etc.

 

[man.united332]

She can't really raise any allegations about child safety when you've been doing the school run and having regular time So I don't think you'd have problems getting an order. You could ask for a progressing order with time increasing once you're in your own place.

what is a progressing order? at the moment i can meet them daily as and when but time is very limited and there is no routine which affects kids and me as well and at any time she overrule my plans with her. i hardly see kids for a quality time, we are all rushing because of school and since its not their place kids like to go back asap so that they can relax thats why i need a proper parenting plan with my own house preferably, but i dont want to rent before i get court order as renting is not cheap and there is no guarantee mother will continue to let me see kids during court process

 

[man.united332]

Agree with Dirge and Ash. A proper place of your own not only provides you with more stability, it provides a safe and settled place for the kids.

The finances are undoubtedly going to be something you will need to discuss with or articulate to her at some point. Does this coversation really need to be through a solicitor? Does the NMO mean you can't contact her at all?

Given the risk to her benefits, its in her interest to sort things out. Ideally, amicably.

I'm also a bit confused about her housing situation. So, she applied for a NMO to stop you going to the rented property you lived in as a married couple, but she is now in a new council house?

False allegations in the Family Court are as common and as guaranteed as Beans cause wind. (This is a poetic way of saying, people talking sh*t!)

Family Law and Civil Law both differ from Criminal Law, particularly when establishing the necessary standard of proof. For example, instead of putting a case before a jury of the public to determine if the defendant did the act “beyond all reasonable doubt”, each party must make their case directly to a judge who will apply what's called the “probability” test.

The standard of proof is the balance of probabilities. Is it more likely than not that the event occurred? Any fact in a dispute has to be proven on the balance of probabilities. This means that, to be treated as having happened, any fact in a dispute has to be proven to be more likely than not. So, if an ex makes an allegation against her childrens father to justify obsructing contact, it is not the father's (the applicant's) responsibility to prove the accusation false, it is the respondants responsibility to prove it true. This is a fundamental part of the legal system. So they can accuse you of whatever deluded BS they like. If it never happened, there is no proof, no probabilities to balance. Stand firm in the face of false allegations. The court will ask her for proof. Just like my ex, who was ordered by the court to provide a timeline of DV allegations and exhibits as evidence for a hearing. Of course, this document never materialised, because it never happened, and she was ticked off for it.

Raising concerns for child safety as a reaction to the CAO application, following a significant period of unsupervised, trusted contact with you would be viewed with some sceptisim I'd of thought. And another baseless allegation with no supporting evidence.

You're at a critical crossroads here. The direction of travel you chose to go in is going to have a reaction. So think about and prepare for it.

Mediation didn't work the first time, but you could use that to propose a more formalised set of child arrangements and agree on finances. You will need to attend a MIAM again anyway for your C100 form/CAO application.

If you can't make your propositions to her directly then what are your options?

Can i not ask the court to grant an order conditionally, like overnight only start once i have my own house rented or mortgage? will CAFCASS be ok with that.

AS per NMO i am not allowed any contact except for child arrangements.

She will not engage in any discussion with me so i have no other choice to contact her via her solicitor about financial ? should i do that or not?

i believe she applied for NMO so that i cant contact her and she can live in the house happily. At the moment she is renting , its the same house we were living together with kids but because of bail conditions and now NMO i cant go back to the house, since i was forced to leave the house due to bail, she negotiated the house with agent and transferred the tenancy to her name and now she pays the bills and rent with the help of benefits etc.

I need to move on and sort CAO and financial asap.

 

[man.united332]

what is the impact of me getting married once the divoce is granted without financial and CAO sorting?

 

[MagicJ]

Can i not ask the court to grant an order conditionally, like overnight only start once i have my own house rented or mortgage? will CAFCASS be ok with that.

AS per NMO i am not allowed any contact except for child arrangements.

She will not engage in any discussion with me so i have no other choice to contact her via her solicitor about financial ? should i do that or not?

i believe she applied for NMO so that i cant contact her and she can live in the house happily. At the moment she is renting , its the same house we were living together with kids but because of bail conditions and now NMO i cant go back to the house, since i was forced to leave the house due to bail, she negotiated the house with agent and transferred the tenancy to her name and now she pays the bills and rent with the help of benefits etc.

I need to move on and sort CAO and financial asap.

Hi @man.united332 , from what you have stated there are no assets in contention expect perhaps your savings?

We're they saved during the marriage, before or after? If that is the only item in question then your finances will be relatively straight forward.

Be aware that there will be CMS as well to contend with our of your regular salary.

 

[MagicJ]

what is the impact of me getting married once the divoce is granted without financial and CAO sorting?

I wouldn't be in a rush, especially if you don't have a partner at the moment.

Your focus is always going to be securing the relationship with your child, typically a 'fast' CAO takes anywhere between 8-12m if contested and through the courts:

C100 Submission
Gate keeping hearing (non attended)
FHDRA
Final Hearing

If you manage to reach a consent order, either directly with her or through negotiations by your legal representative at the FHDRA that shortcuts the process by 3m or more.

If she throws DV allegations at you etc and the court adds a Fact Find or Section 7 they can reach add about +4m to the process

 

[Kyle]

Can i not ask the court to grant an order conditionally, like overnight only start once i have my own house rented or mortgage? will CAFCASS be ok with that.

AS per NMO i am not allowed any contact except for child arrangements.

She will not engage in any discussion with me so i have no other choice to contact her via her solicitor about financial ? should i do that or not?

i believe she applied for NMO so that i cant contact her and she can live in the house happily. At the moment she is renting , its the same house we were living together with kids but because of bail conditions and now NMO i cant go back to the house, since i was forced to leave the house due to bail, she negotiated the house with agent and transferred the tenancy to her name and now she pays the bills and rent with the help of benefits etc.

I need to move on and sort CAO and financial asap.

You can ask your Family Court to consider any child arrangements you like. You and the kids are being denied your own time together, on your terms. It's currently all on her terms, and that's not acceptable. (It's also unlwaful).

What Ash means by progressing order, (the same thing as your suggestion above) Can i not ask the court to grant an order conditionally, like overnight only start once i have my own house rented or mortgage? you can suggest a schedule of time with your kids in your application that gradually increases to accomodate overnight stays when you've got a proper place of your own. But that said, do the current living arrangements mean that overnight stays are completely out of the question?

So, just to spitball some schedule scenarios, you could ask the court for 7 hours every other Saturday and/or Sunday (the courts generally take the view that weekends should be shared, so one weekend with mum, one weekend with dad). You could ask to continue seeing them every day as part of the school run even, if the ex is still content, but lets assume, judging by the standard reaction to a CAO application, that she says no. Ask to have the kids for so many hours in the week. Say for 4 hours on a Wednesday for tea, for example. Then once you're in a place of your own, the daytime hours only contact increases to overnight, 6pm Friday to 6pm Sunday every other weekend, and overnight Wednesdays, collecting them from school of possible and then dropping them back off at school the next day for example.

My order was very similar. I could only have my son at a Contact Centre at first. Then for 3 hours at home on a Saturday. Then 6 hours. Then overnight, every other weekend. This was to apease the ex into agreeing with the order, as well as gently reintroducing my son to time with me so it didn't put him under any sudden stress.

Majic's comment/question about your assets seems logical. No assets in contention expect your savings.

Have you considered contacting a Solicitor to take advantage of the free 30 minutes most firms provide. You can do this with 2 or 3 difference Solicitors to see what the general consensus is regarding your finances.

 

[Ash]

In my view - both parents need somewhere to live after separation. Your ex has transferred the rental tenancy into her own name so there is no owned former marital home. I would buy yourself a place, as you planned. Perhaps using half your savings as a deposit. When it comes to the financials they might say the other half has to go to her, or they might just say half of the other half has to go to her.

But as Kyle says, it would be a good idea to get a half hour's free legal advice. It's a lot to get your head round as the financials and child arrangements legalities are two totally separate things. When applying for Child Arrangements, they don't look at the financials at all. And it can be good to get those sorted first and start moving towards finding somewhere to live. A progressing Child Arrangements order is as it sounds.

You set out a progressing schedule of time. Eg initially you can ask for a midweek tea time and full day a week on Sundays, until you move to your own place, progressing to a midweek tea time and every other week-end once you have your own place, progressing to a midweek overnight and every other week-end within 4 months for example. Did you apply for 50/50 or something else? If you applied for 50/50 you can ask for progression to two midweek overnights and every other week-end as well.

If you remarry after divorce, that doesn't impact on CMS. Your future wife's earnings are not considered - only yours are assessed.

 

[man.united332]

Hi @man.united332 , from what you have stated there are no assets in contention expect perhaps your savings?

We're they saved during the marriage, before or after? If that is the only item in question then your finances will be relatively straight forward.

Be aware that there will be CMS as well to contend with our of your regular salary.

Savings were made during the marriage and i am happy to pay her fair legal share or whatever she ask for, i am also happy to pay CMS

 

[man.united332]

I wouldn't be in a rush, especially if you don't have a partner at the moment.

Your focus is always going to be securing the relationship with your child, typically a 'fast' CAO takes anywhere between 8-12m if contested and through the courts:

C100 Submission
Gate keeping hearing (non attended)
FHDRA
Final Hearing

If you manage to reach a consent order, either directly with her or through negotiations by your legal representative at the FHDRA that shortcuts the process by 3m or more.

If she throws DV allegations at you etc and the court adds a Fact Find or Section 7 they can reach add about +4m to the process

i am not in a rush for partner, but living alone is not easy, so maybe sooner the better.

do i have to file two different applications for CAO and Financial ?

I want to sort financial asap so that i know how much money i'll end up and can get a property for myself and that will help the CAO application as well plus give me a suitable place to stay.

as i am not allowed to contact her because of nmo, should i email her solicitor if they intend to agree anything financially and CAO out of court?

 

[man.united332]

You can ask your Family Court to consider any child arrangements you like. You and the kids are being denied your own time together, on your terms. It's currently all on her terms, and that's not acceptable. (It's also unlwaful).

What Ash means by progressing order, (the same thing as your suggestion above) Can i not ask the court to grant an order conditionally, like overnight only start once i have my own house rented or mortgage? you can suggest a schedule of time with your kids in your application that gradually increases to accomodate overnight stays when you've got a proper place of your own. But that said, do the current living arrangements mean that overnight stays are completely out of the question?

So, just to spitball some schedule scenarios, you could ask the court for 7 hours every other Saturday and/or Sunday (the courts generally take the view that weekends should be shared, so one weekend with mum, one weekend with dad). You could ask to continue seeing them every day as part of the school run even, if the ex is still content, but lets assume, judging by the standard reaction to a CAO application, that she says no. Ask to have the kids for so many hours in the week. Say for 4 hours on a Wednesday for tea, for example. Then once you're in a place of your own, the daytime hours only contact increases to overnight, 6pm Friday to 6pm Sunday every other weekend, and overnight Wednesdays, collecting them from school of possible and then dropping them back off at school the next day for example.

My order was very similar. I could only have my son at a Contact Centre at first. Then for 3 hours at home on a Saturday. Then 6 hours. Then overnight, every other weekend. This was to apease the ex into agreeing with the order, as well as gently reintroducing my son to time with me so it didn't put him under any sudden stress.

Majic's comment/question about your assets seems logical. No assets in contention expect your savings.

Have you considered contacting a Solicitor to take advantage of the free 30 minutes most firms provide. You can do this with 2 or 3 difference Solicitors to see what the general consensus is regarding your finances.

yes only asset is savings.

i have had paid sessions with couple of solicitors, but they were useless, in free sessions they dont tell you much, and in paid session whatever i queries , his reponse was yes this is possible , that is also possible, i mean he wont give you one answer, in his opinion everything is possible., waste of my money.

is progressive order a legal term or just an understanding between us.

 

[man.united332]

at the moment daily contact is not a problem but i dont have a routine which is not good for me or kids, plus no holidays and you live under fear that at anytime mother can deny contact so a proper parenting plan is preferred., my two immediate quetions are

should i contact her solictor for out of court settlement for both CAO and Finances
should i buy a property from my savings, can judge order to give that property to my wife as kids are currently living with her.

thanks

 

[man.united332]

i am currently living in airbnb and at the moment mother is not allowing overnight stay.