Bundle advice - court refused exceeding bundle page limit

[JC83]

Hi all,

Just another pile of nonsense in this never ending saga of broken family court. For my next CAO directions hearing the Court requested that ex and I file and serve medical records, contact centre reports, social services file all minutes, police disclosure, NMO proceedings to disclosed.

Give all the above, with all the associated applications, orders, statements etc (my daughters GP records were since birth so they are 50 odd pages by themselves), I asked the court to permit the bundle to exceed 350 pages. I stupidly didn't give a reason why or propose an upper page limit and they have come back to me today and stated that the bundle should not exceed 350 pages and:

The party responsible for preparing the bundle is directed to Family Procedure Rules 2010 Practice Direction 27A at para. 4.1 for the documents which must be included in the bundle which includes medical records and police disclosure. This does not prevent the inclusion in the bundle of specific documents which it is necessary for the court to read or which will be referred to during the hearing.

I'm at a total loss as to what to do now. I imagine once all the above is provided, the upper limit will be around 550 pages.

Any ideas? @Nanaforsonsjustice

thank you

 

[Oneofmany]

Mate, this is just crazy......

 

[Ash]

I wonder if you could submit the police reports and medical records as separate submissions? Did the order just say they had to be provided rather than part of the bundle?

 

[JC83]

thanks I'll PM buddy. but i think they have to go in.

 

[Ash]

I'd just email the court again and say - the Judge has ordered I submit xyz documents, both of which are very lengthy and make the bundle 550 pages. I would be grateful if you could ask the Judge whether it is ok to submit the 550 page bundle which is only this size due to the disclosures which have been ordered. Thank you.

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

Hi all,

Just another pile of nonsense in this never ending saga of broken family court. For my next CAO directions hearing the Court requested that ex and I file and serve medical records, contact centre reports, social services file all minutes, police disclosure, NMO proceedings to disclosed.

Give all the above, with all the associated applications, orders, statements etc (my daughters GP records were since birth so they are 50 odd pages by themselves), I asked the court to permit the bundle to exceed 350 pages. I stupidly didn't give a reason why or propose an upper page limit and they have come back to me today and stated that the bundle should not exceed 350 pages and:

The party responsible for preparing the bundle is directed to Family Procedure Rules 2010 Practice Direction 27A at para. 4.1 for the documents which must be included in the bundle which includes medical records and police disclosure. This does not prevent the inclusion in the bundle of specific documents which it is necessary for the court to read or which will be referred to during the hearing.

I'm at a total loss as to what to do now. I imagine once all the above is provided, the upper limit will be around 550 pages.

Any ideas? @Nanaforsonsjustice

thank you

Hi, are you both LIP?

I would just add them all to the bundle and send it. All documents you are including were requested by the Court and if they exceed the 350 page limit there is nothing you can do. My sons is already at 530 pages and they have only had 3 hearings, with no police or social worker disclosures. If you are LIP they should give you out some leeway.

 

[JC83]

Hi, are you both LIP?

I would just add them all to the bundle and send it. All documents you are including were requested by the Court and if they exceed the 350 page limit there is nothing you can do. My sons is already at 530 pages and they have only had 3 hearings, with no police or social worker disclosures. If you are LIP they should give you out some leeway.

Yes both Lip. thank you Nana, thats how it feels. The Court have asked for those documents so there is not a lot I can do about it.

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

thank you Nana, thats how it feels. The Court have asked for those documents so there is not a lot I can do about it.

The court tend not to penalise LIP for bundle errors. At a directions hearing they may not even refer to the bundle. At the hearing if it is necessary you can ask for permission to have a larger bundle especially if they request that you file and serve anything else.

 

[JC83]

The court tend not to penalise LIP for bundle errors. At a directions hearing they may not even refer to the bundle. At the hearing if it is necessary you can ask for permission to have a larger bundle especially if they request that you file and serve anything else.

thank you Nana. I've got 29 exhibits (totalling 104 pages) with my witness statement. I havent slung any mud at ex, its just responding to her multiple allegations with evidence. Its a remote hearing and I have included cover pages for exhibits (but attached evidence to the same cover pages where I can). Do you think the judge will frown at this approach? Its hard as all i've done is try and refute her allegations but at the same time I dont want to be told off for the amount of evidence I have submitted.

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

Yes both Lip. thank you Nana, thats how it feels. The Court have asked for those documents so there is not a lot I can do about it.

The other thing you can do which is not done very often now everything is electronic is provide 2 bundles, so for the index you would have one for each and it will say Index for bundle 1 and then date time and before the magistrates or Judge and each bundle starts with a section A.

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

thank you Nana. I've got 29 exhibits (totalling 104 pages) with my witness statement. I havent slung any mud at ex, its just responding to her multiple allegations with evidence. Its a remote hearing and I have included cover pages for exhibits (but attached evidence to the same cover pages where I can). Do you think the judge will frown at this approach? Its hard as all i've done is try and refute her allegations but at the same time I dont want to be told off for the amount of evidence I have submitted.

That’s the correct way to do it to attach the exhibit to the cover page, a lot of people including many paralegals get that bit wrong.

 

[JC83]

thanks nana. I'm just worried the judge may think that 29 exhibits is too many exhibits and the cover pages bulk it all out.

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

thanks nana. I'm just worried the judge may think that 29 exhibits is too many exhibits and the cover pages bulk it all out.

My son had 22 exhibits with a cover sheet and some exhibits were 10 pages long, the magistrates didn’t say anything bad and were content that they had the full evidence.

 

[Ash]

It was me said the cover pages bulked it out . I think Nana knows more about this though and the idea of two bundles is good. One for the ordered documents maybe? And the general bundle for the hearing itself? What do you think Nana?

 

[JC83]

thank you so much nana. Thats my concern, the judge will make a decision on whether my case will go to a fact find or not based on our statements

 

[Ash]

My son had 22 exhibits with a cover sheet and some exhibits were 10 pages long, the magistrates didn’t say anything bad and were content that they had the full evidence.

The slight issue is that he already emailed the court and they replied referring him to the PD and saying bundles should be no more than 350 pages. So should he just submit it anyway now, or reply to the email saying that due to court ordered lengthy documents, one of which is 50 pages on its own, the bundle is 550 pages and he hopes the Judge will accept this, due to the number of court ordered documents.

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

thank you so much nana. Thats my concern, the judge will make a decision on whether my case will go to a fact find or not based on our statements

This is why my sons got so big all the statements and exhibits for potential fact finding, her barrister didn’t want a fact find in the end as they had no evidence for the alleged DA, my son had evidence to disprove the DA and evidence she was a perpetrator of DamA but also said no fact find due to the delay it will cause. They are unlikely to penalise you for providing evidence that will help you.

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

The slight issue is that he already emailed the court and they replied referring him to the PD and saying bundles should be no more than 350 pages. So should he just submit it anyway now, or reply to the email saying that due to court ordered lengthy documents, one of which is 50 pages on its own, the bundle is 550 pages and he hopes the Judge will accept this, due to the number of court ordered documents.

The person emailing was likely just the admin front of desk person. The court do accept bundles over the 350 pages, but as he has already emailed I would do 2 bundles. The second bundle containing all the ordered disclosures. That way if no fact find is ordered the second bundle is there but essentially redundant.

Then at the hearing ask for future hearings will the court confirm they accept the bundles over 350 pages to be added to the order.

 

[Nanaforsonsjustice]

Also by providing 2 bundles which you are permitted to do, as is everyone where required you are complying with the direction that the bundle will not exceed 350 pages.

 

[JC83]

This is why my sons got so big all the statements and exhibits for potential fact finding, her barrister didn’t want a fact find in the end as they had no evidence for the alleged DA, my son had evidence to disprove the DA and evidence she was a perpetrator of DamA but also said no fact find due to the delay it will cause. They are unlikely to penalise you for providing evidence that will help you.

Thanks Nana. Thats the problem, ex has accused me of all manner of atrocities and my evidence helps to refute them.