Bad to worse

so, we had our final hearing and final order not even 2 month ago, since then, things have become crazy to say the least. During court proceedings, i had a lot of help from people on her which im forever grateful for. After court had finished, my plan was to just try and enjoy life away from court, the ex and everything my life had been for over a year whilst going through court, I just wanted to try and get on with life and enjoy the time i had been awarded with my kids, the ex however had other ideas as i knew she would, i just didnt expect it to be so soon after court.
Our order was that our daughter was to live with me but our son was to live with ex which i wasnt happy with but had to accept. The order also stated that we were to communicate via a parenting app, the ex chose to use Appclose, she sent me a link and i followed the instructions, downloaded the app and tried to connect with her on the app. Apparently this link was meant to link us together but it didnt, it just prompted me to download, which i did, i then tried to send her a link from my end to link with me which she claims she didnt receive, i sent her evidence of my invitation sent to her which she denied receiving. Anyway, as i had tried this link a few times, i decided to give up with it. 3 weeks after final hearing i had to contact her via email about the children, she replied to my message telling me that she was giving me the 12 weeks notice that she wanted to take the children on holiday and asked my permission to take our daughter, I agreed after speaking with daughter but she said that she didnt want her, or new partner, drinking on the holiday, shes court ordered not to drink around my daughter or even have alcohol in her home while shes there. So we had a conversation via a few emails, she asked me again to set up the app as she didnt want direct contact with me so i tried again and again it failed to link us, i explained this again and was basically called a liar and she told me that the link did work as she had sent it to 2 other people and it worked fine. Later that night i get a phone call from a police man saying that theyd had a complaint that id contacted her direct and she wasnt happy about it, he said he had seen the emails and said there was nothing wrong in what i had said and agreed that it was just a conversation about the children. I explained the problems i had with the app and he said that she had agreed to try different apps and that he would send her a list of others. He asked me not to contact her again just to keep the peace and i agreed. 2 weeks later i receive a whatsapp message from her at 4.30 in the morning with another link to same app, she has had to unblock me on whatsapp to send this, i tried again but again it didnt link us. I didnt reply this time.
I had agreed with her that my daughter could spend the night of our sons birthday with her and our son so he had someone there with him to share his day with as, due to court order, i wasnt allowed to see my son on his birthday. Daughter came back the next day quite upset, Mother had decided to take children to her partners pub for the night instead of staying at her house, both mother and partner were drinking which she is ordered not to do so daughter had been upset by this as it was the first time she had stayed overnight with her in a year and she chose to drink around her. She reminded mother that she wasnt supposed to be drinking and she was told that it only applied at her house and that because mother had told the court that she wouldnt drink around her that she could change her mind and didnt have to abide by it. Daughter didnt push it as she knows she can be quite abusive with her especially when drinking.
3 weeks ago i suffered a heart attack and was taken into hospital, my Mother and adult children were helping with taking care of my daughter doing school run etc while i was in. I got 1 of my older children to take daughter to her mothers address for her usual weekly visit with her mother. Within an hour of her being there she was on the phone to me crying and scared. Mother had somehow found out that id had a heart attack, I believe she used a friend who works in hospital to access my records, i didnt tell the kids so not to worry them, she took it upon herself to tell kids that id had a heart attack and it was due to me being a cocaine addict, im not. She had told daughter that me leaving my mother and adult children looking after her was illegal and that both social services and a solicitor had told her this and that she was not to let my daughter go home to my mother as she doesnt have parental responsibility for her and that she would not be taking her home while i wasnt there. This scared my daughter as she isnt meant to stay overnight with mother and she told me to ring the police as she wanted to go home to my mother. I rang the police who told me they would attend mothers address to speak to her. They rang me from outside of mothers house after speaking to mother and daughter and said they had also contacted ss to find out what should happen in this case, they were advised that as i am resident parent and that daughter had confirmed she wanted to go home then that is what she has to do,mother apparently got quite abrupt with the police telling them it was illegal for me to leave my daughter with anyone who doesnt have PR etc. She had text my mother saying the same thing earlier in the day aswell. She brought her home at the ordered time and i ranf my mother to speak with daughter who said as a punishment mother had confiscated her phone so that shwe couldnt contact me whilst with her, Cafcass had advised my daughter to do this if she was ever uncomfortable while with mother, Thay also assured her that mother was not allowed to keep her and had to take her home at the ordered times as daughter was afraid of this as thats what mother had done to our son at the beginning off court, we didnt see him for 2 months. So now daughter has lost trust in what Cafcass had assured her of as mother had done both things she was told not to do. Daughter was meant to go back to mother next day but was nervous about it after what had happened the previous day but she agreed to go as she wanted to see if mother would give her phone back as she uses it a lot to keep in touch with her friends while shes not at school as most kids do. Anyway, she came back and said that mother refused to giver her the phone and had spent the day bad mouthing me and telling the kids that ive had a heart attack due to being a drug addict, that i was stalking mother and continually harassing her, that i still want to take her back as im still upset about the break up etc etc etc. All of which is complete and utter lies and is being said to try and turn the kids against me.
Aswell as the weekend visits, its ordered that daughter spends 3 hours after school with mother on a wednesday night and i have our son from school overnight, this is the only time mother and i are in the play ground together as school let me pick my daughter up from reception to stop any conflict that might happen. So i went to get pour son and daughter ran up to me and ask3d me to tell mother that she wasnt going as she didnt feel safe with her anymore and that she was sick of her lying to her all the time and making empty promises to her, Mother, who had turned up with her Father, she usually goes alone, heard this and at that point both mother and her Father grabbed my daughter, mother by the arm and her father by the hood on her coat and started to try and drag my daughter with them shouting that they didnt care what she wanted and that it was court ordered and she was going with them, at this point i went towards them as my daughter was screaming but the Dad let go of my daughter and came towards me and smacked me in the face with his shoulder, i pushed him away and told him to keep his hands off me at this point he came right up to my face and was telling me not to forget that he knew where i lived etc, mother was still trying to drag my daughter away but she fought back, by now quite a few parents and teachers had seen what was happening so mother released my daughter and shouted to her dad to leave it and she could stay with me shouting at me to go and have another f***ing heart attack across the school as she walked away. This was terrifying for both of us and of course my little boy was upset at seeing this aswell so when we got home i called police to report it. Police came out next day and said they would hve to speak with them etc so it is still ongoing. In the meantime my daughter refused to go to her mother this weekend, understandably, but it was my weekend with my son who i usually pick up from school on friday. friday afternoon i recieve an email from mother saying son was poorly and that he was to be picked up from her dads house who had just assaulted me, this is what the usual school holiday handover is so didnt anticipate any further issues with her dad as they dont usually come out of the house, i just toot outside and son comes out to me. This time i pull up to see all of the blinds closed in the house which was unusual but i tooted and waited as normal, nothing, no son came out so i tooted again and again but nothing, I sat there 45 mins waiting and had emailed her to say i was there, but no reply, so i assumed she wasnt going to send him and was being clever so i drove away, she knows i take the kids to see my family at weekends who live 30 mile away so by the time i got there she had sent an email asking where i was as son was waiting for me, she knew i was there as i told her and i tooted as usual which is never normally ignored, so i had to tell her that i would come back down for him which i did but i know this was done out of malice, she even said that if we had the app set up then this wouldnt have happened, she is obsessed with us having this app and even used it as an excuse for not having her visit with our daughter 1 weekend as she got confused with the dates which she claimed would not have happened if we had this app set up even though the dates are clearly set out in our order and very easily checked.
There are other bits to the story but thats the main things, now my daughter will not go to her mothers, and our son is being left at her dads house quite often now so she can spend the night at partners home or if he stays with them he is forced to watch horror films and is left alone while they "sit in the bedroom all night" or if theyre not together she sits in the kitchen on the phone to him for hours again leaving him on his own, he is very unhappy now more than he was before this new guy showed up and has told my daughter that he doesnt like being with his mother now.
So sorry for the long post and thank you if you took the time to read it all. My questions now are what do i do? Do i have to apply back to court regarding daughters contact with mother or is that her job? Can i ask to vary the order so she doesnt have to go as often or at all even or have supervised visits? Can i re apply to have our son come live with me and his sister as he wants and always did? Any advice would be great and thanks again for reading

 

[Ash]

I'm sorry to hear all this has happened. It seems to have started with this

She reminded mother that she wasnt supposed to be drinking and she was told that it only applied at her house

Your ex manipulating the court order wording that says she isn't to drink at home when your daughter is there. So instead she went to the pub.

As it stands, you've both breached the order. My concern is that a return to court could mean the kids both being sent to live with the Mother due to conflict between parents. All the police calls etc. And I think the Judge did mention that at your final hearing. They will say you've told child what was in the court order etc, and incited her probably.

I think the best thing right now is try and settle things down - although that might be difficult if Police have been involved. The app business sounds crazy.

I am really sorry you've had a heart attack and hope you're doing ok now. But it's the same as before - if your daughter refuses to go then your ex witholds your son. The Police can't enforce court orders, as I'm sure you know.

The holidays situation sounds ridiculous. Were defined weeks not ordered? Or was it just give x weeks notice if having a holiday?

It all sounds very stressful, but particularly for your son as he lives with his Mother. You're going to have to handle all this with kid gloves to avoid being accused of being equally part of the conflict and to try and calm things down for the kids.

Have you been in contact with Cafcass? And if so what have they said.

First thing is maybe to get a co parenting app that works for you and ask her to use it. Why was she supposed to choose the parenting app? A number of people have used app close so may be able to suggest how to set it up.

What are the arrangements for Christmas this year and have you seen your son since?

 

[Ash]

I would think you would need to do an enforcement application as your son is being witheld. However she will claim you've incited your daughter to refuse to come and told her the contents of the court order. The court will see the order isn't working and are likely to order residency of both kids with one parent. And invariably that is with the Mother. She passed an alcohol test previously and there is no real evidence your daughter came to any harm, which is tricky.

I would try and calm things down for now and make a written note of the days breached for your son. But deal with everything in a polite formal way and try to avoid using the Police.

Most of the other co parenting apps aren't free but Our Family Wizard is court approved - it costs about £100 a year but I think it would be worth setting that up and asking your ex to agree to use it. The app close scenario sounds totally bizarre.

It's almost as if, now court is over, the gloves are off, and Cafcass will see both children are at high risk of parental conflict and they will want to change the order - and it may not be in your favour. You have to look squeaky clean.

Your ex is incorrect however, When your daughter lives with you, it's up to you to decide who to leave her with. But you need to be careful not to be accused of telling your daughter bad stuff about the Mother - or encouraging her not to go - even though your ex is doing things like that.

Were there witnesses at the school as to what happened with your daughter? A teacher maybe? That might help.

Right now though, you need to let things calm down for your kids. I think the midweek order is clearly defined and just needs to be followed. If your daughter's first midweek overnight was not solely with your ex and involved taking her to the pub then I would enforce the order. But don't ask for residency of both kids at this stage. The Judge will probably add clauses to the order to tighten it up. Then if your ex breaches again or manipulates the order again, then you could think about applying to vary for residency.

 

[SJP]

I'm sorry to hear all this has happened. It seems to have started with this



Your ex manipulating the court order wording that says she isn't to drink at home when your daughter is there. So instead she went to the pub.

As it stands, you've both breached the order. My concern is that a return to court could mean the kids both being sent to live with the Mother due to conflict between parents. All the police calls etc. And I think the Judge did mention that at your final hearing. They will say you've told child what was in the court order etc, and incited her probably.

I think the best thing right now is try and settle things down - although that might be difficult if Police have been involved. The app business sounds crazy.

I am really sorry you've had a heart attack and hope you're doing ok now. But it's the same as before - if your daughter refuses to go then your ex witholds your son. The Police can't enforce court orders, as I'm sure you know.

The holidays situation sounds ridiculous. Were defined weeks not ordered? Or was it just give x weeks notice if having a holiday?

It all sounds very stressful, but particularly for your son as he lives with his Mother. You're going to have to handle all this with kid gloves to avoid being accused of being equally part of the conflict and to try and calm things down for the kids.

Have you been in contact with Cafcass? And if so what have they said.

First thing is maybe to get a co parenting app that works for you and ask her to use it. Why was she supposed to choose the parenting app? A number of people have used app close so may be able to suggest how to set it up.

What are the arrangements for Christmas this year and have you seen your son since?

I'm sorry to hear all this has happened. It seems to have started with this



Your ex manipulating the court order wording that says she isn't to drink at home when your daughter is there. So instead she went to the pub.

As it stands, you've both breached the order. My concern is that a return to court could mean the kids both being sent to live with the Mother due to conflict between parents. All the police calls etc. And I think the Judge did mention that at your final hearing. They will say you've told child what was in the court order etc, and incited her probably.

I think the best thing right now is try and settle things down - although that might be difficult if Police have been involved. The app business sounds crazy.

I am really sorry you've had a heart attack and hope you're doing ok now. But it's the same as before - if your daughter refuses to go then your ex witholds your son. The Police can't enforce court orders, as I'm sure you know.

The holidays situation sounds ridiculous. Were defined weeks not ordered? Or was it just give x weeks notice if having a holiday?

It all sounds very stressful, but particularly for your son as he lives with his Mother. You're going to have to handle all this with kid gloves to avoid being accused of being equally part of the conflict and to try and calm things down for the kids.

Have you been in contact with Cafcass? And if so what have they said.

First thing is maybe to get a co parenting app that works for you and ask her to use it. Why was she supposed to choose the parenting app? A number of people have used app close so may be able to suggest how to set it up.

What are the arrangements for Christmas this year and have you seen your son since?

I'm sorry to hear all this has happened. It seems to have started with this



Your ex manipulating the court order wording that says she isn't to drink at home when your daughter is there. So instead she went to the pub.

As it stands, you've both breached the order. My concern is that a return to court could mean the kids both being sent to live with the Mother due to conflict between parents. All the police calls etc. And I think the Judge did mention that at your final hearing. They will say you've told child what was in the court order etc, and incited her probably.

I think the best thing right now is try and settle things down - although that might be difficult if Police have been involved. The app business sounds crazy.

I am really sorry you've had a heart attack and hope you're doing ok now. But it's the same as before - if your daughter refuses to go then your ex witholds your son. The Police can't enforce court orders, as I'm sure you know.

The holidays situation sounds ridiculous. Were defined weeks not ordered? Or was it just give x weeks notice if having a holiday?

It all sounds very stressful, but particularly for your son as he lives with his Mother. You're going to have to handle all this with kid gloves to avoid being accused of being equally part of the conflict and to try and calm things down for the kids.

Have you been in contact with Cafcass? And if so what have they said.

First thing is maybe to get a co parenting app that works for you and ask her to use it. Why was she supposed to choose the parenting app? A number of people have used app close so may be able to suggest how to set it up.

What are the arrangements for Christmas this year and have you seen your son since?

It was Cafcass who told my daughter that mother cant drink or have drink in the house while shes there, the pub she took them to belongs to new partner and i think shes using that as a loophole, or trying too. Son isnt being withheld at the minute, she wont do that now as my time with him is her time to be with new partner doing what she always has, but its clearly having an affect on him, MOther showed daughter the court order about me failing drug test, although she didnt show her the bit that said it was a tiny amount due to be spiked, she has also told other people that ive failed a drug test aswell as a few people have told me. She is obsessed with this app, I think shes pushing that as its the only bit of the order i havent been able to stick to, im not sure if i cant connect with her as she has said she already has 2 others on it and im not sure i want anyone else shes invited on to it reading about our kids either.
so this new guy has a villa in spain apparently and she has said she is taking son for 3 days over xmas holidays and asked for permission to taake daughter aswell, obviously i cant stop her taking son.
I havent contacted Cafcass as i got a letter from them saying that they were done with the case now and had nothing else to do, i didnt know that i could or should, when i reported the assault the officer told me he had reported to ss who would be in touch but havent as yet.
I let her choose the app so i couldnt be accused of pushing my chosen app on her and also cafcass had suggested that 1 a while a go so i guess she thinks thats the only one she can use, either that or shes insisting on it as she knows im having issues with it.
arrangements for xmas are that i have them xmas eve 1pm til xmas day 1pm but the half school holidays wont have started by then as they dont kick in until end of january when by then we should have been having a full weekend each

 

[SJP]

I would think you would need to do an enforcement application as your son is being witheld. However she will claim you've incited your daughter to refuse to come and told her the contents of the court order. The court will see the order isn't working and are likely to order residency of both kids with one parent. And invariably that is with the Mother. She passed an alcohol test previously and there is no real evidence your daughter came to any harm, which is tricky.

I would try and calm things down for now and make a written note of the days breached for your son. But deal with everything in a polite formal way and try to avoid using the Police.

Most of the other co parenting apps aren't free but Our Family Wizard is court approved - it costs about £100 a year but I think it would be worth setting that up and asking your ex to agree to use it. The app close scenario sounds totally bizarre.

It's almost as if, now court is over, the gloves are off, and Cafcass will see both children are at high risk of parental conflict and they will want to change the order - and it may not be in your favour. You have to look squeaky clean.

Your ex is incorrect however, When your daughter lives with you, it's up to you to decide who to leave her with. But you need to be careful not to be accused of telling your daughter bad stuff about the Mother - or encouraging her not to go - even though your ex is doing things like that.

Were there witnesses at the school as to what happened with your daughter? A teacher maybe? That might help.

Right now though, you need to let things calm down for your kids. I think the midweek order is clearly defined and just needs to be followed. If your daughter's first midweek overnight was not solely with your ex and involved taking her to the pub then I would enforce the order. But don't ask for residency of both kids at this stage. The Judge will probably add clauses to the order to tighten it up. Then if your ex breaches again or manipulates the order again, then you could think about applying to vary for residency.

I knew this would happen, as soon as court was finished she would see that as she can do what she wants again, i just didnt think it would be that quick. Daughter is now terrified to go to her mothers after what her and her dad tried to do to her, all they know is violence, both kids heard grandad threaten that he knew where i live. I knew she was wrong about who i leave kids with but she tried to tell the kids that it was illegal and ss had told her this and advised her to keep daughter, again this will have been said to make me look bad to the kids.
im not sure if there were any witnesses to the full incident at school but i know a few parents and at least 1 teacher saw the end of it, whether theyll come forward or not i dont know, there is no cctv at school either which i found a bit strange even just for the kids safety.
Hand on heart i never ever talk down about the mother ever, but she quite often does about me and not just to the kids but friends aswell. How can i make my daughter go to mother now? shes terrified, people who are supposed to protect her are trying to hurt her, apart from physically drag her there then i dont know what i can do or say that will make her change her mind, she only agrred to go as cafcass spoke to her on the phone before final hearing and advised her to ring me if she was worried and told her about the drinking clause in the order and told her mother wasnt allowed to keep her, this all seems like lies to daughter now and doesnt trust any of it.

 

[SJP]

it seems crazy to me that i and my daughter can be assaulted and threatened yet its best not to inform the police?

 

[Ash]

So half the holidays doesn't start till January. It is therefore your discretion as to whether you agree for your daughter to go on this holiday, and you could simply politely decline and say you already have plans. What does the order actually say about holidays until January?

It's good you're still getting to see your son. I suggest you get this book linked below. It helped me deal with a lot of this kind of stuff my ex was doing with my son - particularly all the bad mouthing. To minimise the stress on your son you need to be in the habit of responding with certain things like "Mum might think that but she is incorrect" and then change the subject and do some fun things and distract your son and try and minimise the stress for him.

Make a note of the breached week-end. If there are any further breaches (ie your son not made available) then if it happens again (ie a second breach) then you enforce the order. Providing there is no reasonable excuse. That is the key. It's only a breach if there is no reasonable excuse. And she sounds quite tricky, pretending you didn't turn up to collect him. But I think it would still be a breach if she said to pick him up somewhere else.

The situation for your daughter sounds very bad if she has experienced that. I'm not quite clear why you were at school that day if your daughter was supposed to be going with ex - were you supposed to be collecting son as well?

I wouldn't worry about her choosing an app and would take the initiative. Is it just a recital that says parents will use app close? Can you afford to sign up for Our Family Wizard? There shouldn't really be any need to communicate with a defined order, unless either parent is requesting changes (which your ex is asking to do over Christmas.

Keep everything brief, informal and unemotional so she doesn't get to you - she will get a kick out of your reactions and keep doing things to wind you up.

I'd just explain to both kids, that the court determined there were no issues with you and you had a normal medical condition and you are doing fine now, And Mum may think it is about drugs, but she is incorrect. And then add (this used to work well for me) - these are adult matters for parents to discuss and you don't need to worry about it. You just need to enjoy being a child and having fun.

So maybe send her a brief Whatsapp along the lines of

"Unfortunately I already have plans over that Christmas week. We need to find a suitable co parenting app if App close is not working for you. Will you agree to use Our Family Wizard, which is court approved?"

That is the kind of thing that would be good evidence for you in future,. Always show you're the calm reasonable one.,

But have a look at this book - it's full of useful tips and phrases for helping keep things stable for the kids when an ex is bad mouthing you. I carried it around with me daily for a while and kept dipping into it. It took learning to deal with things differently to protect the kids minds. One of the authors - Amy J Baker - is a PA expert. The book is also in sections and chapters that are easy to dip into and follow without having to read the whole book.

Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do When Your Ex-Spouse Tries to Turn the Kids Against You eBook : Baker, Amy J. L., Fine, Paul R: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do When Your Ex-Spouse Tries to Turn the Kids Against You eBook : Baker, Amy J. L., Fine, Paul R: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[Ash]

As regards the incident with the first overnight and the pub, again you need to deal with this in a calm co parenting way, and just message your ex saying something like

"Regarding xxxxx';s first Wednesday overnight with you. Cafcass intended this to be time for you and daughter to improve your relationship and spend Mother daughter time together. While it doesn't say where you spend your time, taking her to a pub with your partner is not helpful for her as it involves alcohol and is not a particularly private place. Please can you assure me that, in future, you will not be taking her to a pub on Wednesday nights after school."

You need to start building up evidence if you're thinking of applying to court again, so you have a lot more to go back with if you want any chance of having both kids living with you. And that needs to be hard evidence, not hearsay or just your daughter saying things. Eg a social services report, something in writing etc. So try and just deal with each issue as it occurs - detach from the ex as much as possible, make sure the kids have a nice time when they're with you (actions speak louder than words) so they see time with you as a normal stable life and not full of stress and manipulation like it is at exes.

Yes I can understand you reporting to the police if things got physical. If had had a video of it they might have done something. And you did right to involve the police when ex refused to return your daughter.

The kind of behaviour your ex is doing is the type of high conflict, disruptive stuff that courts can't always deal with via orders, and they will say that. I had all sorts - stealing phones and other items to make me pay for new things. Although all that evidence counted against ex as being hostile and not child focused, the result was still only lives with both parents. She would have to do something really really bad for them to transfer residency of your son to you. Otherwise Cafcass will see it as conflict between parents.

 

[Ash]

Ok I just read back. The reason you were both at school is that daughter is with ex on Wednesdays and son is with you on wednesdays. That is going to be an issue with both parents at school, It may be that if you weren't there, your daughter would have gone with ex. If she had refused, school may have stepped in. I don't know what to suggest there other than to ask the school to ensure a different pick up location and slightly different time, to avoid issues.

 

[Ash]

Do you think it's worth asking social services to get involved and speak with your daughter? The trouble is, if social services do recommend anything they usually tell you to apply to court over it. But you could say to them you need something in writing to be able to re-apply to court and you're concerned at the stress for both children.

 

[SJP]

So half the holidays doesn't start till January. It is therefore your discretion as to whether you agree for your daughter to go on this holiday, and you could simply politely decline and say you already have plans. What does the order actually say about holidays until January?

It's good you're still getting to see your son. I suggest you get this book linked below. It helped me deal with a lot of this kind of stuff my ex was doing with my son - particularly all the bad mouthing. To minimise the stress on your son you need to be in the habit of responding with certain things like "Mum might think that but she is incorrect" and then change the subject and do some fun things and distract your son and try and minimise the stress for him.

Make a note of the breached week-end. If there are any further breaches (ie your son not made available) then if it happens again (ie a second breach) then you enforce the order. Providing there is no reasonable excuse. That is the key. It's only a breach if there is no reasonable excuse. And she sounds quite tricky, pretending you didn't turn up to collect him. But I think it would still be a breach if she said to pick him up somewhere else.

The situation for your daughter sounds very bad if she has experienced that. I'm not quite clear why you were at school that day if your daughter was supposed to be going with ex - were you supposed to be collecting son as well?

I wouldn't worry about her choosing an app and would take the initiative. Is it just a recital that says parents will use app close? Can you afford to sign up for Our Family Wizard? There shouldn't really be any need to communicate with a defined order, unless either parent is requesting changes (which your ex is asking to do over Christmas.

Keep everything brief, informal and unemotional so she doesn't get to you - she will get a kick out of your reactions and keep doing things to wind you up.

I'd just explain to both kids, that the court determined there were no issues with you and you had a normal medical condition and you are doing fine now, And Mum may think it is about drugs, but she is incorrect. And then add (this used to work well for me) - these are adult matters for parents to discuss and you don't need to worry about it. You just need to enjoy being a child and having fun.

So maybe send her a brief Whatsapp along the lines of

"Unfortunately I already have plans over that Christmas week. We need to find a suitable co parenting app if App close is not working for you. Will you agree to use Our Family Wizard, which is court approved?"

That is the kind of thing that would be good evidence for you in future,. Always show you're the calm reasonable one.,

But have a look at this book - it's full of useful tips and phrases for helping keep things stable for the kids when an ex is bad mouthing you. I carried it around with me daily for a while and kept dipping into it. It took learning to deal with things differently to protect the kids minds. One of the authors - Amy J Baker - is a PA expert. The book is also in sections and chapters that are easy to dip into and follow without having to read the whole book.

Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do When Your Ex-Spouse Tries to Turn the Kids Against You eBook : Baker, Amy J. L., Fine, Paul R: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do When Your Ex-Spouse Tries to Turn the Kids Against You eBook : Baker, Amy J. L., Fine, Paul R: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

www.amazon.co.uk

so as we have a progression order, daughter is to gradually start seeing mother more, by january, it should be in full progression from 1 day a week to EOW each friday to monday school pick up and drop off, thats when we will also be having half of school holidays, starting with february half term. I do use those type of comments with the kids when they tell me what has been said, especially about things like that being things that only adults should talk about and that they shouldnt worry about things like that. The phone that mother has now confiscated was a xmas present last year from mother, its a contract phone, recntly daughter received a text addressed to mother as its in her name stating that as she hadnt paid the bill, that her services had been suspended and could no longer use it for calls, texts internet etc, daughter forwarded message to mother and she replied telling her that she wouldnt be paying the bill anymore as she now had to pay Dad child support and told her how much she had to pay and that it was my fault as she now had no money to pay the bill saying that this was totally unexpected and that she would now need to get me to pay for the phone which she had given her, i explained that she shouldnt worry about these things as they were adult issues and that we would sort it out between me and mother.
Yes, wednesdayis the day i have my son overnight and daughter goes to mother for 3 hours and it had been the only time we are in the play ground at the same time as i usually pick daughter up from reception at the opposite end of the school. I have been into school today and told them that i would like both children at reception this week so as not to have any repeat of what happened last week and theyve agreed to do that.
The problem i have with choosing a different app is that mother wont agree to anything i say and will say that we have to use that one as that was the one reccomended, even though she knows theres an issue with it, its the loophole she will use to not use any other app and will insist on that one which is why ive tried to connect with that one even though she has told me that she will try another app, she keeps sending me the same link for appclose that doesnt work, in her head, the more she sends that link and the more it doesnt work then she sees that as my refusal to use it and will believe i will get in trouble with the court for not using it.
I am now in the habit of not getting into arguments with her over email or anything when she goes off topic etc, she recently sent an email saying that i was a violent man with a violent past etc, im not, but i didnt react to it and just kept on topic, I know she is trying to get a bite out of me and loves nothing more than an argument, she believes if she says something then it is true and that is evidence, you remember the video she made of our son the night before final hearing, asking him questions about me then answering them for him! To her that is evidence!
I had already agreed for her to take daughter on this holiday at xmas as it was going to be mostly over a weekend that daughter would be with her apart from 2 extra nights, but that was on the condition she or he didnt drink at all and it would also depend on how visits went between then and now, daughter is now saying that she will not be going with her as she doesnt trust her now as she was drinking on the very first night she stayed with her, and also now she has no phone to be able to contact me with if there are any issues like cafcass told her to do.

 

[SJP]

As regards the incident with the first overnight and the pub, again you need to deal with this in a calm co parenting way, and just message your ex saying something like

"Regarding xxxxx';s first Wednesday overnight with you. Cafcass intended this to be time for you and daughter to improve your relationship and spend Mother daughter time together. While it doesn't say where you spend your time, taking her to a pub with your partner is not helpful for her as it involves alcohol and is not a particularly private place. Please can you assure me that, in future, you will not be taking her to a pub on Wednesday nights after school."

You need to start building up evidence if you're thinking of applying to court again, so you have a lot more to go back with if you want any chance of having both kids living with you. And that needs to be hard evidence, not hearsay or just your daughter saying things. Eg a social services report, something in writing etc. So try and just deal with each issue as it occurs - detach from the ex as much as possible, make sure the kids have a nice time when they're with you (actions speak louder than words) so they see time with you as a normal stable life and not full of stress and manipulation like it is at exes.

Yes I can understand you reporting to the police if things got physical. If had had a video of it they might have done something. And you did right to involve the police when ex refused to return your daughter.

The kind of behaviour your ex is doing is the type of high conflict, disruptive stuff that courts can't always deal with via orders, and they will say that. I had all sorts - stealing phones and other items to make me pay for new things. Although all that evidence counted against ex as being hostile and not child focused, the result was still only lives with both parents. She would have to do something really really bad for them to transfer residency of your son to you. Otherwise Cafcass will see it as conflict between parents.

The night she stayed with Mother was an extra night i agreed to as it was sons birthday so i agreed to let her stay as otherwise son would have had no one to share his birthday with, I assumed they would be staying at mothers house but no, she took them to her partners pub and sat drinking all night, again i believe this was done as a loophole as the order says not to drink around daughter but also says to have no alcohol at home while she s there, her explaination was that because she had told court she wouldnt drink or have alcohol at home that she was able to change her mind if she wished but it is in the order, she just makes it up as she goes along unfortunately, like telling the kids that me leaving them with my mother is illegal yet its fine for her to leave son with her dad overnight once or twice a week. She even tried to tell the police that attended her home that it was illegal but obviously they put her right thankfully.
It really baffles me that cafcass cant or wont see that the conflict between parents is one sided, I try to agree with most things but yet she will never agree to anything I ask at all and i just get "as per the order" but yet im told that im supposed to encourage our daughter to spend extra time with her which im not now that we have a final order, she contradicts herself all the time, its her way or no way regardless, thats why she and her dad thought it was fine to try and drag her out of school even though it scared her as they kept saying that its court ordered and youre coming, they didnt care that she was scared and crying, heaven knows what would have happened had they managed to take her away!

 

[SJP]

Do you think it's worth asking social services to get involved and speak with your daughter? The trouble is, if social services do recommend anything they usually tell you to apply to court over it. But you could say to them you need something in writing to be able to re-apply to court and you're concerned at the stress for both children.

The police officer who came out to speak to me about the incident at school has refferred to ss as a safeguarding concern. I rang them next day and they confirmed this but i have had no further contact with them since, I asked for advice regarding my daughter being ordered to visit mother but they told me that they could not advise either way as there was an order and that i should take legal advice, I think ill give it another couple of days then ring again to see if theres any updates. Ive asked school if daughter could start seeing the welfare officer more regularly again as she only speaks to her once a month now but i know daughter opens up to her a lot.

 

[Ash]

Yes you're kind of on your own now you've got the order. No more Cafcass and yes social services will say it's a court matter. Unless it's something like immediate risk of harm.

You've got a lot going on and are getting over a heart attack so suggest just ignoring ex as much as possible. It's better NOT to agree to flexibility and extra times because it just leads to more hassle. From now on I would just follow the order to the letter - because that's better for the kids - they get a stable routine and no messing about with changes.

Ok so the phones first. As your daughter lives with you, you're responsible for providing and paying for her phone anyway, so I would just get her another one, put a parental control app on it, so ex can't mess with it, You legally own the phone as the parent then. Then your daughter has a phone (unless ex confiscates it).

So have your daughter's midweek overnights started now? Maybe see how it goes next week. But you'll need to get her a phone before then.

Your ex is not going to give an inch on anything and will always be difficult. Ignore her as much as possible to try and keep things low key for the kids. Basically though you don't have to deal with ex over the phone - your daughter legally lives with you so you can sort a phone out and it's none of her business.

 

[SJP]

Yes you're kind of on your own now you've got the order. No more Cafcass and yes social services will say it's a court matter. Unless it's something like immediate risk of harm.

You've got a lot going on and are getting over a heart attack so suggest just ignoring ex as much as possible. It's better NOT to agree to flexibility and extra times because it just leads to more hassle. From now on I would just follow the order to the letter - because that's better for the kids - they get a stable routine and no messing about with changes.

Ok so the phones first. As your daughter lives with you, you're responsible for providing and paying for her phone anyway, so I would just get her another one, put a parental control app on it, so ex can't mess with it, You legally own the phone as the parent then. Then your daughter has a phone (unless ex confiscates it).

So have your daughter's midweek overnights started now? Maybe see how it goes next week. But you'll need to get her a phone before then.

Your ex is not going to give an inch on anything and will always be difficult. Ignore her as much as possible to try and keep things low key for the kids. Basically though you don't have to deal with ex over the phone - your daughter legally lives with you so you can sort a phone out and it's none of her business.

yeah, ive ordered har a new phone which will arrive tomorrow. How would i stand if mother confiscated this one? Is that classed as theft as it belongs to me and would police go and retrieve it? I have no problem getting a new phone for her but that one was a xmas gift last year from mother so up until now she has always had a phone while shes been with mother.
I only agreed to daughter staying for sons birthday as i felt sorry for him as he wasnt allowed to see me or any of my family so I agreed, which I now know was a mistake. I wont be doing it again as, like you say i will never get anything in return and the routine is better for the kids.
Midweek overnights dont start til January as part of us having EOW each, she will have them Thursday night weekly i will have wednesday night. As it happens, last night Mother didnt even turn up to collect daughter from school so she came with me anyway, I had no notice of this nor any explaination as to why, but surely i cant be penalised if Mother isnt showing up to collect daughter.

 

[Ash]

No you can't be penalised if she doesn't show up to collect your daughter. Yes if your ex kept the phone you bought and didn't return it, it would be theft. Although in a co parenting situation it might not be classed as theft by the police, but witholding. They could still tell her to return it but she can't if she's chucked it. My ex would chuck anything that came from my house. My son quickly learned not to take anything there sadly.

But a phone is something that stays wiht the child. What you might get is just disruptive nastiness - like accidentally breaking the phone or tampering with it and installing something. The way round that is set it up so she can't access it and you manage the parental controls remotely.

Apple have good built in parental controls password controlled and other things like that which is why I got my son a second hand iphone rather than a cheaper new android one.

If she does steal the phone or break it more than once, it's all evidence building up. The more evidence you have built up over a period, the more likely you'd be to get residency but it's usually advised not to apply again for about a year. Providing you are squeaky clean and they don't blame both parents.

Re the app. You can't use one that doesn't work. Whether she believes you or not. It would be better if you set up a different one, maybe one that just requires a login by her. Then you can show, in future, that you attempted to set up a co parenting app in good faith.

 

[SJP]

No you can't be penalised if she doesn't show up to collect your daughter. Yes if your ex kept the phone you bought and didn't return it, it would be theft. Although in a co parenting situation it might not be classed as theft by the police, but witholding. They could still tell her to return it but she can't if she's chucked it. My ex would chuck anything that came from my house. My son quickly learned not to take anything there sadly.

But a phone is something that stays wiht the child. What you might get is just disruptive nastiness - like accidentally breaking the phone or tampering with it and installing something. The way round that is set it up so she can't access it and you manage the parental controls remotely.

Apple have good built in parental controls password controlled and other things like that which is why I got my son a second hand iphone rather than a cheaper new android one.

If she does steal the phone or break it more than once, it's all evidence building up. The more evidence you have built up over a period, the more likely you'd be to get residency but it's usually advised not to apply again for about a year. Providing you are squeaky clean and they don't blame both parents.

Re the app. You can't use one that doesn't work. Whether she believes you or not. It would be better if you set up a different one, maybe one that just requires a login by her. Then you can show, in future, that you attempted to set up a co parenting app in good faith.

Ive had that before with other phones, when i found out she had cheated and i left her, our daughter had a phone that i used to contact her with, but when mother decided to bring this guy into our house while kids were there this phone went missing and mother claimed that daughter had lost it and they had searched for it but couldnt find it, 2 month later, my son video called me from mothers house and my daughter spotted her phone while on the call so that proved that mother did have the phone and it had probably been removed so that daughter couldnt contact me when this guy was around as mother had told me she knew this guy as he was one of her drug dealers and thats how their "relationship" had started. So yes, that is something that would probably happen again with any new phone.
I agree that its too soon after final hearing to go for residency of my son, but evidence is already building up in this short time since the order was made, I cant remember a week that daughter hasnt returned and nothing has happened, anything from bad mouthing me, or accusing me of something or blaming me for something or just generally being nasty to the kids, I document everything.
Ill have a look at different apps over the weekend and choose a different one to try, the good thing is that i have an email from mother saying that she would try a different app which she hasnt, and i also have the police officer who called me after we had a conversation over email as she complained about me contacting her, he said he was going to send her a list of alternative apps that she could try but again she didnt try any others, she just kept sending me links to appclose that she knows im having issues with as i think she believes that if i cant get it to work then thats me refusing to use it. She keeps saying that she doesnt want direct contact with me but she doesnt understand that any app is still direct contact as its just a messaging platform the same as text, whatsapp or email. Shes trying to use it against me, she told me via email a few weeks ago that she wouldnt be available for daughters sunday visit one week as she had to travel that day for work as she had got the dates mixed up for when daughters weekly visits would finish and go to EOW saying that if we had this app set up then there would not have been any confusion, until i pointed out that these dates were in the order and having an app set up or not did not change what is clearly written in the order, it didnt make sense what she was trying to say

 

[Ash]

I'd not even try to reach an agreement with her. Just set up an app you're happy with and send her the info on how to use it. I think Our Family Wizard has a calendar, so people can add things to the calendar without needing to message as such. Or send a request without needing to get into dialogue. There is also a "tone filter".!

 

[SJP]

Thanks Ash, I'll have a look, bit reluctant to pay for an app though if she refuses to use it and she would if she knew I'd paid for it

 

[Ash]

Yes that is an issue. Ok maybe try sticking to the App close one. Just send her a message like this maybe

"Hi. I would very much like us to get using the App close app and try to get it set up and running and I am unsure why it has not worked as yet. The links you sent didn't work and when I set it up and sent you a link, nothing happened. There is another court approved one called Our Family Wizard which is very good and has a calendar and tone filter, however it costs about £100 a year. If you are happy to set this up, I will pay for it/refund you, once it is up and running and working for both of us."

ie put the ball in her court - it shows you've tried everything and she'd have to pay to set it up and only when it's set up and working for both of you do you refund her.

And the above email is good evidence for the future if it doesn't work out. If you did end up paying £100 and she messed it up again that would be even stronger evidence That's the kind of think that helped my case, when it was clear my ex was deliberately disruptive and causing me financial loss (stealing things I'd paid for).