Back to court

[Luke1234]

Hi all, the ex has applied for court after I was awarded 40:60 in the last final order (initiated by me).
There’s barely any information in the paperwork other than lies made up or truths twisted which I have evidence to prove against.
She is saying our child has anxiety around seeing me and now the order isn’t in their best interests so is asking to vary the order (untrue and child only seems to have anxiety/upset around seeing me when the ex is there for hand over)
What happens next? I am going to contact a solicitor tomorrow who I know will explain things further but wanted to get my head around it first. The proceedings letter mentions cafcass and I’m unsure what I have to do ie contact cafcass myself, produce a witness statement etc
Any help is greatly appreciated

 

[bujanin]

Hi all, the ex has applied for court after I was awarded 40:60 in the last final order (initiated by me).
There’s barely any information in the paperwork other than lies made up or truths twisted which I have evidence to prove against.
She is saying our child has anxiety around seeing me and now the order isn’t in their best interests so is asking to vary the order (untrue and child only seems to have anxiety/upset around seeing me when the ex is there for hand over)
What happens next? I am going to contact a solicitor tomorrow who I know will explain things further but wanted to get my head around it first. The proceedings letter mentions cafcass and I’m unsure what I have to do ie contact cafcass myself, produce a witness statement etc
Any help is greatly appreciated

Sorry to hear that your arrangement has broken down.
Sit tight CAFCASS will contact you.
There's no reason to put any witness statement together at this stage. You want to be active and get going but it pays to let things unfold.

Keep notes of all things that you think are relevant because at some point you'll probably need to put a statement of some kind together.

The question is why would your daughter suddenly become anxious with you? What could be going on to create anxiety in your daughters mind? Of course we know the likely reason but don't use the words when you come to speak with CAFCASS, let them arrive at the thought.

 

[DannyK]

Eesh @Luke1234

I have a feeling that my Ex is coming for me in similar fashion after I won a similar Order in November..

How old is your current Order?

Is the Order "joint lives with" both parents? Or are you "spends time with"
Mine is "joint lives with", although I only have 5 overnights per fortnight and half holidays

And how old is your child?
My little girl is 5

Do you do handovers at school?
I make handovers at school wherever possible; as daughter is always beaming to see me, as opposed to getting upset when Ex is present - no doubt because daughter is aware of the (false) allegations that I'm a Domestic Abuser made by Ex..

 

[Luke1234]

I think the anxious seed has tried to be sewn but you’re right in suggesting I let cafcass arise. There has been conflict on the ex’s behalf at hand overs that child has witnessed. do I tell cafcass this and let them reach the conclusion themselves or say I feel that’s what is creating “anxiety?”

@DannyK
Sounds very similar to my situation! Ex is also claiming DV but no idea what I’ve supposed to have done as no info in the court paperwork. Yes handovers are mostly at school apart from in the holidays (which is when we have issues ie child occasionally crying and clinging to the ex) however return is back to ex’s.

Am I allowed to say to the courts I am happy for the order to be varied so all handovers are through school to lessen anxieties or am I best to see what ex is going to suggest and go from there? I am worried I am going to lose time but I don’t see why I would when nothings is going wrong on my behalf but I know it all depends on the judge on the day etc

 

[Luke1234]

I think the anxious seed has tried to be sewn but you’re right in suggesting I let cafcass arise. There has been conflict on the ex’s behalf at hand overs that child has witnessed. do I tell cafcass this and let them reach the conclusion themselves or say I feel that’s what is creating “anxiety?”

@DannyK
Sounds very similar to my situation! Ex is also claiming DV but no idea what I’ve supposed to have done as no info in the court paperwork. Yes handovers are mostly at school apart from in the holidays (which is when we have issues ie child occasionally crying and clinging to the ex) however return is back to ex’s.

Am I allowed to say to the courts I am happy for the order to be varied so all handovers are through school to lessen anxieties or am I best to see what ex is going to suggest and go from there? I am worried I am going to lose time but I don’t see why I would when nothings is going wrong on my behalf but I know it all depends on the judge on the day etc

The order is 18 months old. She asked for a lives with order when I applied for CAO and my solicitor advised at the time to accept so I did but I don’t really understand what it means

 

[Ash]

She won't get far with that Why shouldn't a child have a normal life with Dad and she isn't even there to see if the child is anxious anyway!

How long is it since your previous hearing? ie how long has this arrangement being going on now?

Also what is your 40% schedule? 5 nights a fortnight? Is your child of school age? If so ex shouldn't be there when you collect your child so I assume child isn't school age. If child is school age and your order doesn't have collection to and from school, rather than ex, then this application to vary could work in your favour You could ask for variation so all collections and drop offs are directly to and from school. And a recital to say that the Mother must be positive with the child about going to see the Father as it is the Mother conveying anxiety to the child, who is perfectly fine with you when the Mother isn't there.

 

[bujanin]

Further to that the inevitable holidays will arise when school drop offs aren't possible.

Collection can be with you standing 10metres away from front door at collection and waiting 10m from front door to see her enter the house at drop off or vice versa if drop off/collection is shared. There are ways around having to cross paths and it would be smart to have a workable solution to counter her objections.

 

[Luke1234]

Thank you, this has really helped to put my mind at rest. I’m praying the judge sees through her like last time.
The last hearing was 18 months ago. Yes child is school age and I currently have 5 nights a fortnight. Collection is to and from school apart from some of the days where I have to drop our child to her (child is 8 and lets herself in so I don’t see the ex) and then school holidays is ex drops to me then I drop to ex. I’m definitely going to ask for all term time collection/drop offs to be via school.
We have a complicated case of what I would say is child alienation from the mother but I know I can’t say/mention this in court so trying to figure out how best to do things so like you say this actually works out in my favour.
The court paperwork gives nothing away about what she is going to ask to vary the order to, is this normal?

 

[Ash]

It sounds like she just wants the time reduced claiming child anxiety. The other reason they apply is to get the child's wishes and feelings heard by Cafcass - which means your child might be spoken to by Cafcass and you can expect some coaching. But don't worry - at that age they are quite clever at throwing in the odd red herring so Cafcass pick up that they really do want to spend time with you. Eg they might say what the ex has told them to say but then say something else that contradicts that. They have to protect themselves and kids are scared about their own stability but I'm sure it will be fine. It's unfortunate your ex has decided to have your child involved in court again. You could actually counter apply as well and ask for 50/50, saying the Mother is being obstructive and putting the child through unnecessary court proceedings. That's if you want 50/50. But it might be better not to ask for 50/50 if you want to use the argument the Mother is putting the child through unnecessary court proceedings. So it might be better to just ask the court to uphold the current order but adjust it so there are seamless transitions to and from school so both parents aren't present at handovers.

The good news is, your ex is doing it now, rather than when the child is 10 or 11. Once they get to that age, their wishes and feelings are taken much more seriously and an ex could pressurise the child into saying they want less time etc. The main thing is that you don't pressurise the child as well or discuss anything to do with court with them. You can just say some people are going to help decide what is best for her and when to see Mum and Dad and not to worry about anything.

So is it every other week-end Friday from school to Monday morning school drop off, and one midweek overnight? If so there is no reason all collections and drop offs shouldn't be straight from school, and you want tight order wording to make sure the ex doesn't circumvent that by picking up early or something or arranging dental appointments straight from school etc etc.

If there are any after school activities on your nights, then you would still collect the child from school and take them to the activity and the ex wouldn't be there. Unless you agree she can be but that's not a good idea.

Has your ex not even attempted mediation first? Unfortunately this is going to cost some money to get a good outcome possibly, as in using a direct access barrister for hearings. Or at least for a final hearing. We can help with position statements and general things, but if you use a barrister, they will do the position statement usually.

It sounds like the ex still sees herself as the "resident" parent - expecting you to drop off at hers sometimes.

 

[Luke1234]

It sounds like she just wants the time reduced claiming child anxiety. The other reason they apply is to get the child's wishes and feelings heard by Cafcass - which means your child might be spoken to by Cafcass and you can expect some coaching. But don't worry - at that age they are quite clever at throwing in the odd red herring so Cafcass pick up that they really do want to spend time with you. Eg they might say what the ex has told them to say but then say something else that contradicts that. They have to protect themselves and kids are scared about their own stability but I'm sure it will be fine. It's unfortunate your ex has decided to have your child involved in court again. You could actually counter apply as well and ask for 50/50, saying the Mother is being obstructive and putting the child through unnecessary court proceedings. That's if you want 50/50. But it might be better not to ask for 50/50 if you want to use the argument the Mother is putting the child through unnecessary court proceedings. So it might be better to just ask the court to uphold the current order but adjust it so there are seamless transitions to and from school so both parents aren't present at handovers.

The good news is, your ex is doing it now, rather than when the child is 10 or 11. Once they get to that age, their wishes and feelings are taken much more seriously and an ex could pressurise the child into saying they want less time etc. The main thing is that you don't pressurise the child as well or discuss anything to do with court with them. You can just say some people are going to help decide what is best for her and when to see Mum and Dad and not to worry about anything.

So is it every other week-end Friday from school to Monday morning school drop off, and one midweek overnight? If so there is no reason all collections and drop offs shouldn't be straight from school, and you want tight order wording to make sure the ex doesn't circumvent that by picking up early or something or arranging dental appointments straight from school etc etc.

If there are any after school activities on your nights, then you would still collect the child from school and take them to the activity and the ex wouldn't be there. Unless you agree she can be but that's not a good idea.

Has your ex not even attempted mediation first? Unfortunately this is going to cost some money to get a good outcome possibly, as in using a direct access barrister for hearings. Or at least for a final hearing. We can help with position statements and general things, but if you use a barrister, they will do the position statement usually.

It sounds like the ex still sees herself as the "resident" parent - expecting you to drop off at hers sometimes.

Yeah I definitely think this is an attempt on her behalf to have my time reduced, seeing as she didn’t want me to have any relationship with our child in the first place, question is will the judge see through it? I completely agree our child will be coached on what to say (on her behalf) as a lot of this goes on currently. I will definitely be taking your advice by counter applying to vary the order on what I feel will be a better and smoother transition for our child through school.
Am I allowed to give examples of when she’s been obstructive (as this has happened a lot) as this is something I want to make the judge aware of but I’m also scared/aware that I need to be careful of what I’m saying as I don’t want the judge to see it as he said she said.

At the moment it’s every other weekend but drop off is Sunday evening to Mum then one midweek overnight. I agree it needs to be through school instead and I definitely need the order to be more tighter wording as grey areas have been taken advantage of since the original order was made.

No she hasn’t attempted mediation and is claiming domestic abuse (not sure how or why. I had to have a non-molestetion order put in place against her on police advice due to stalking and harassment a year ago and contact is limited so I have no idea why she’s been able to skip meditation and claim I’m the one abusing her)
I am meeting my solicitor this week so hopefully will get the ball rolling with things but really value this group with advice and support too so thank you.