Alternatives to Spousal Maintenance

[Jumper85]

Hi All,

Wondering if anyone has any experience or has received any legal advice recently on this point. I did historically but I can't quite remember all the points mentioned/discussed.

Current scenario is this;

• Final Hearing for finances is scheduled in 3 months time
• The ex has been continuing to seek spousal maintenance whereas I've been seeking a clean break
• The judge at the last hearing suggested spousal may be likely in order to achieve a clean break
• The latest is the ex has asked for £400 monthly for 3yrs

My questions are this;

• My legal advice recollection was vaguely something along the lines of 'it maybe beneficial to both of us to agree any payments as child maintenance than rather spousal maintenance.' - I believe approaching it like this can still enable a clean break to be achieved but also seem to recall there is some potential tax benefits to the ex?
• The alternative solution I was considering is suggesting to the ex to take the children's savings and I repay that over a period plus interest (has anyone seen such agreements?)
• Can something be written in an order to say something like, £400 monthly and ceases when a total of £14,400 is paid which would give me the flexibility to clear it sooner if possible or obtain a lump sum from somewhere like a loan or family and pay it off

I'm keen to secure a clean break so interested to know whether others have experience on the best possible way of achieving this.

Thanks

Jumper

 

[Ash]

Sorry I can't be much help here as I'm not up on divorce finances. Do you have an order for Child Arrangements already? Because that could affect any discussions on Child Maintenance. Assuming you do have a CAO and it's less than 50/50 then any Child Arrangements payments agreed as part of the divorce would normally only last for a year and then you'd go via CMS assessment.

£400 a month spousal for three years doesn't sound too bad (depending on what you're paying in Child Arrangements as well). And spousal is also based on the ability to pay I think. So for example if you lost your job I don't think you'd have to pay it (although would probably have to apply to vary). I think you maybe need some legal advice on this though.

What you don't want to do is agree something for "global" maintenance (ie a sum that includes Child Maintenance and Spousal Maintenance as one lump).

If she's asking for £400 a month spousal - what is she asking for in Child Maintenance?

If the previous advice was to pay £400 a month in Child Maintenance instead of spousal then I can see that could work out cheaper but I can't see them agreeing because it couldn't be ordered for 3 years (I think) and only lasts one year.

 

[Scoobydoo]

This is what amazes me daily. The inconsistency of the system …. Clearly on your case spousal maintenance could be payable.

My ex applied for it via solicitors. Then took me to court and it was literally laughed out almost .. with a view of it’s not the 1970s. However I think the whole settlement was looked at which although I say myself was generous and voluntary as I wanted out and a clean break.

One thing that was spelt out to both of us was maintenance is dealt with by cms if you cannot agree. Dont bring it in my court room. However it was 8 years ago.

 

[Dirge]

I was advised spousal maintenance was unlikely to be ordered, since mine and ex's income were similar. Do you have any assets such as property or savings that are in the marital pot? I would try to keep child payments separate from any potential spousal maintenance, and make sure any child payments are clearly labelled as that on any bank payments made.

 

[Jumper85]

Hi All,

CAO is in place. Lives with both parents on a 50/50 basis so no child maintenance is payable but I do voluntarily pay the children's general care costs as I've always said my children won't go without and I'd rather pay on my own terms that have a court or CMS dictate what I pay.

It's one of the reasons in the 2nd hearing the judge mentioned spousal as he assumed CM was being paid but isn't.

@Scoobydoo - would be interested to hear what your circumstances were and details of outcome to draw comparison.

@Ash - You've made a good point which I keep stating, spousal can only be paid if affordable and whilst it seems on the surface to her and even me, it reduced my mortgage borrowing capacity. Whilst I earn good money and earn over 4 times what the ex does, I carried all the martial debts in personal name and given they're in sole name and will likely to do so post divorce with the inability to pay them off. If I add spousal to these monthly commitments it further reduces my borrowing capacity and ability even get back on the property ladder.

Hi @Dirge , we've spoken a few times. How's it going? Courts suggestion at the 2nd hearing was the asset split would be 90/10 so I've had to come to accept this but refused spousal on top of this at the 2nd hearing on the basis the 90% settlement for the ex enabled her to buy a modest house in the same area and be mortgage free where I would be left with a 10% house deposit for the same modest house.

Thanks all for your comments

 

[Ash]

Ok. So you have 50/50 shared care - and you both need to provide a proper home for the kids. Presumably they're just looking at how the ex will cope on a lower income. £400 a month for three years isn't unreasonable - gives her chance to retrain and earn more. But if she's getting 90% of the capital ...........Which seems a lot. And you both have to provide for the kids in your own homes. What about pensions? Are you keeping your pension?

As well as her own salary she should be getting child tax credits? And if she was mortgage free she should be able to manage shouldn't she?

I'm wondering if, in lieu of paying spousal, you just say you will pay for certain things for the kids for the next four years.

 

[Scoobydoo]

Hello jumper85.

Like you seem to be I was very child focussed and there security going forward . As mum was to be primary carer I agreed to 80 percent of value of assets ( live )

I was working . She ( mutually agreed was a ‘housewife ‘ for want of a better word ) realistically her ability to earn was limited almost impossible when the children were young so I had zero issue giving it up and starting again.

What I didnt expect was another pair of testicles living in the house working 12 months that we had worked so hard for ( she was left mortgage free ) . I never thought this would happen and looong back I was a bit daft as should have secured things a bit better but fine line of trying to control / look after the kids.

Didn’t touch her pension and to be fair to her she didn’t touch any of my business assets ( not much ) but left me to earn. This was all agreed out of court and seemed fine. I also made an agreement to pay a sum monthly to keep her bills paid and kids fed.

Bizzarely soon after ( as settlement order wasn’t yet signed off by the court to let divorce finalise ) out of the blue and now having a full time income coming in with new said testicles she asks for spousal on top. Like you in my head I had put that in my maths with my monthly payment but clearly she wanted more ( now not needed ) so this really annoyed me …

Anyway I agreed an amount just to move on but it was not agreed and I was invited to court. She didn’t realise the whole package would now be looked at and I’d been more than fair. Then oddly o find a letter from CMS that she had started a case .. o was able to explain I had been paying by consent and that was accepted with proof and calculations were now done .. well they almost halved the payment I was paying. Who was advising her I do not know but online tool would have told her that was gonna happen.

Roll on court day .. her barrister looked at the voluntary split .. and realised I had been more than fair. Advised her to ‘get in the real world ‘ … some of the assets hadn’t yet been signed off but agreed so we’re still on the table as such.

Oddly it turned. The offered more of the remaining assets back to avoid the hearing .. this was all signed off by the judge and clean break. As I said one thing I remember was them piping up about the figure cms had advised claiming all sorts of nonsense I was hiding income etc. I remember she was told take it up with cms. I’m not interested. They deal with that. This I also found when she tried to bring it in to children matters for my time with and tried to use it as a bargaining tool. Again she was told go to cms

I would advise you seperate in your head the legal requirement ( cms ) and any additional payment albeit voluntary or ordered by the court ( spousal ) . Your split sounds more than fair and if spousal awarded I’d try to secure some of the assets in form of a charge or order that you can go back when kids older for some of it .. like you I wanted to start again and happy with my deposit I was left with but now having someone else living and enjoying my / our work I wish I’d been firmer and not such a mug. I believed the tears / nonsense I’d never move on etc and move someone in.

Always stay child focussed. Make sure that are ok as much as you can. It’s our duty. Both parents. But don’t be fooled into what I did and let it blur what could happen. Greed v need . Sadly mine got greedy





Anyway moving on ..

 

[Jumper85]

Ok. So you have 50/50 shared care - and you both need to provide a proper home for the kids. Presumably they're just looking at how the ex will cope on a lower income. £400 a month for three years isn't unreasonable - gives her chance to retrain and earn more. But if she's getting 90% of the capital ...........Which seems a lot. And you both have to provide for the kids in your own homes. What about pensions? Are you keeping your pension?

As well as her own salary she should be getting child tax credits? And if she was mortgage free she should be able to manage shouldn't she?

I'm wondering if, in lieu of paying spousal, you just say you will pay for certain things for the kids for the next four years.

Hi Ash, the ex retrained and obtained qualifications about 5yrs ago and was originally running her own business and applying her new skills to this whilst taking the advantage of flexible working/reduced hours. She's now working 30hrs a week employed applying those skills also. I would therefore challenge the requirement to retrain.

£400 doesn't seem unreasonable but it's the fact the mortgage lenders see it as unaffordable without it impacting my borrowing capacity.

Agree, I've basically agreed to cover all the childcare costs so she has her entire income plus a small amount of Universal credit to purely look after herself. I've been claimed the child benefit to date on the basis I cover all the children's costs but also in fear that it could support a future CMS claim despite having the CAO with 50/50 shared care.

 

[Dirge]

My second hearing did not go as well as hoped. Basically the ex played the system and played dirty. The judge gave his opinion of what the decision would be at final hearing, and it was game over. My barrister urged me to accept that, on the basis that if the final hearing awarded a settlement the same as that of the second hearing, the other side would have a good chance of being awarded legal costs on the grounds I had needlessly delayed proceedings. I did get a clean break, but strongly believe the assets were not divided fairly. Anyway, regarding your potential CMS payments; if you have a CAO stating 50/50, have the child benefits paid to you, and can prove you pay for day to day costs, I don't think CMS can touch you - keep it that way! Pay for as much extra child costs as you want on a voluntary basis, but don't give up anything that will let CMS get a foot in the door. Ex's get greedy, they can treat fathers as cash cows to be milked for as much as possible.

 

[Jumper85]

Sorry to hear that it didn't go so well @Dirge.

How did the ex end up playing dirty? I'm sure anyone on the forum would benefit as suspect most of us will face similar scenarios!

What was your settlement agreement? Was there a big disparity between yours and the ex's income? Did they consider the child arrangements and age in your case and therefore housing need?

I suppose one thing I'm interested in is whether the outcome, despite how unfair it may seem, meant that you could both obtain a similar size/value home as at the moment, her proposal is suggesting she should get a greater value home than me.

 

[Jumper85]

Hello jumper85.

Like you seem to be I was very child focussed and there security going forward . As mum was to be primary carer I agreed to 80 percent of value of assets ( live )

I was working . She ( mutually agreed was a ‘housewife ‘ for want of a better word ) realistically her ability to earn was limited almost impossible when the children were young so I had zero issue giving it up and starting again.

What I didnt expect was another pair of testicles living in the house working 12 months that we had worked so hard for ( she was left mortgage free ) . I never thought this would happen and looong back I was a bit daft as should have secured things a bit better but fine line of trying to control / look after the kids.

Didn’t touch her pension and to be fair to her she didn’t touch any of my business assets ( not much ) but left me to earn. This was all agreed out of court and seemed fine. I also made an agreement to pay a sum monthly to keep her bills paid and kids fed.

Bizzarely soon after ( as settlement order wasn’t yet signed off by the court to let divorce finalise ) out of the blue and now having a full time income coming in with new said testicles she asks for spousal on top. Like you in my head I had put that in my maths with my monthly payment but clearly she wanted more ( now not needed ) so this really annoyed me …

Anyway I agreed an amount just to move on but it was not agreed and I was invited to court. She didn’t realise the whole package would now be looked at and I’d been more than fair. Then oddly o find a letter from CMS that she had started a case .. o was able to explain I had been paying by consent and that was accepted with proof and calculations were now done .. well they almost halved the payment I was paying. Who was advising her I do not know but online tool would have told her that was gonna happen.

Roll on court day .. her barrister looked at the voluntary split .. and realised I had been more than fair. Advised her to ‘get in the real world ‘ … some of the assets hadn’t yet been signed off but agreed so we’re still on the table as such.

Oddly it turned. The offered more of the remaining assets back to avoid the hearing .. this was all signed off by the judge and clean break. As I said one thing I remember was them piping up about the figure cms had advised claiming all sorts of nonsense I was hiding income etc. I remember she was told take it up with cms. I’m not interested. They deal with that. This I also found when she tried to bring it in to children matters for my time with and tried to use it as a bargaining tool. Again she was told go to cms

I would advise you seperate in your head the legal requirement ( cms ) and any additional payment albeit voluntary or ordered by the court ( spousal ) . Your split sounds more than fair and if spousal awarded I’d try to secure some of the assets in form of a charge or order that you can go back when kids older for some of it .. like you I wanted to start again and happy with my deposit I was left with but now having someone else living and enjoying my / our work I wish I’d been firmer and not such a mug. I believed the tears / nonsense I’d never move on etc and move someone in.

Always stay child focussed. Make sure that are ok as much as you can. It’s our duty. Both parents. But don’t be fooled into what I did and let it blur what could happen. Greed v need . Sadly mine got greedy





Anyway moving on ..

Thanks @Scoobydoo, really helpful to know your experience and story. The cheek on them to come back for spousal at a later date, I didn't know this was even possible!

 

[Ash]

Hi Ash, the ex retrained and obtained qualifications about 5yrs ago and was originally running her own business and applying her new skills to this whilst taking the advantage of flexible working/reduced hours. She's now working 30hrs a week employed applying those skills also. I would therefore challenge the requirement to retrain.

£400 doesn't seem unreasonable but it's the fact the mortgage lenders see it as unaffordable without it impacting my borrowing capacity.

Agree, I've basically agreed to cover all the childcare costs so she has her entire income plus a small amount of Universal credit to purely look after herself. I've been claimed the child benefit to date on the basis I cover all the children's costs but also in fear that it could support a future CMS claim despite having the CAO with 50/50 shared care.

Ok so she has no need to retrain She can just earn more and work more because the childcare is shared 50/50. I also noted the comment above about another man moving in ............... Would it be an option to decline £400 a month spousal in lieu of agreeing 90% of the capital?

 

[Ash]

Thanks @Scoobydoo, really helpful to know your experience and story. The cheek on them to come back for spousal at a later date, I didn't know this was even possible!

I don't think it is possible! Clean break is just capital though. The original order would need to clearly state no spousal I think.

 

[Scoobydoo]

Thanks @Scoobydoo, really helpful to know your experience and story. The cheek on them to come back for spousal at a later date, I didn't know this was even possible!

It’s not after the drop of the hammer. We had not quite got to that stage yet … or the solicitors/ mediators to agree before it got turned into an order and settlement … it was bought up last minute hence it went to court as I would not yield to the demand … well not what she was demanding. As I said. It didn’t end well for her !

 

[Scoobydoo]

You must must must somehow get a clean break. How you deal with it I don’t know as I was told ( from memory ) no clean break and if you win the lottery or get inheritance they can come back. Check with your legal team but one of the things that was written into mine was. You are not coming back for nothing. Over to cms now if you have disputes. But I swerved spousal ..

Check with your legal I could be wrong as memory

 

[Jumper85]

Ok so she has no need to retrain She can just earn more and work more because the childcare is shared 50/50. I also noted the comment above about another man moving in ............... Would it be an option to decline £400 a month spousal in lieu of agreeing 90% of the capital?

That's my view also, she can simply earn more and work more. The comment above about another man moving in was Scooby, not me.

I've attempted to decline the £400 per month spousal in lieu of 90% capital but like most she feels it's not enough. It didn't help that at the 2nd hearing the judge was bouncing the idea of £750 per month round however at that time, the settlement being discussed was more in the regain of 80/20.

 

[Jumper85]

You must must must somehow get a clean break. How you deal with it I don’t know as I was told ( from memory ) no clean break and if you win the lottery or get inheritance they can come back. Check with your legal team but one of the things that was written into mine was. You are not coming back for nothing. Over to cms now if you have disputes. But I swerved spousal ..

Check with your legal I could be wrong as memory

You're right, clean break is king and without it, they can come back for me. Need the order to be water tight of course!

 

[Jumper85]

A quick update - I presented the facts to the ex today providing her with a decision in principle mortgage quote with £400 spousal maintenance. It reduced my borrowing capacity by a significant amount which would pretty much price me out of the market, whereas with the £400 spousal she was looking at properties up to £90,000 more than what I could afford. Provided her with web links and all my financials to also do the quote herself should she not trust what I presented. Hoping it sunk in!

I'm assuming a court wouldn't agree for her to have a far greater valued property and leave me struggling to buy even a 2 bed apartment on a 90% Loan to Value?

I've offered a pension split of the same value of what the ex has asked for in spousal as an alternative.

One final point, the ex has started referring to my girlfriends salary and saying the courts may want to take her salary into consideration!! Anyone have any experience of this? It's relatively early days and we're nowhere near at the point of moving in with one another but she's met my children, could this even be challenged in court? Could it be suggested we could one day live with each other? It's obviously a possibility but most certainly not in the near future!

 

[Ash]

No she can't take your gf's salary into consideration - that is her money, But suggest she keeps things in her own name.

 

[Dirge]

Re. pension split; it's usually an option but bear in mind splitting a pension can be quite an expensive process.
Don't want to say anything too outing, but re. ex playing the system, basically she minimized her income by cutting her full time job to part time, then claiming universal credit, and not declaring several other cash in hand income streams. Despite there being loads of one off payments shown on her bank statements, and me challenging other assets and income, Judge/courts weren't interested. I feel the judge took the view that I was the big bad, (rich - if only), man with a full time job and she was the poor little defenseless woman on benefits who I was attempting to exploit/rip off. The reality of it was the other way round! Re. ex playing dirty; she failed to give complete and frank disclosure, and ignored all the points I raised on the financial questionnaire. None of which were questioned in court. She trashed the family home, (made it look a mess, but superficial stuff that would be relatively cheap to fix). On the day of the hearing produced one "trade" quote for 10's of thousands of £'s to rectify the property. This quote was obviously written by someone she knew, and wasn't included in the bundle, so I had no opportunity to question it. This is one very good reason not to move out of the family home until everything is sorted - CAO AND financials. Other stuff on top of that, but I've said enough.